Does This Quote Mean Anything To You? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nuranar · 01-28-2003, 08:34 PM

Seeing the Two Towers for the first time, I could not believe my ears when I heard the following quote. Every single member of my family was just as amazed as I. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The battle for Helm’s Deep is over. The battle for Middle-Earth is about to begin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Apart from its literal meaning, there is a tribute that no one I have talked to (outside of my family) noticed. I reserve the right to speak thus abstrusely until some of you demonstrate that my family is not the only one in the world that knows...well, I think I'll end there. [ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Nuranar ]

Darkside · 01-28-2003, 09:24 PM

I know this one..... I think. AAAARRRGG! It's on the tip on my keyboard!!!

HCIsland · 01-28-2003, 09:30 PM

You're not talking Attack of the Clones are you? When Yoda says, "The Clone Wars have begun" or something like that. Maybe it was more, "Clone Wars, begun they have". I don't think that was intended at all. I'm sure we can find other movies with similar lines.H.C.

Nuranar · 01-28-2003, 09:37 PM

No, it's not from another movie at all. This is real life.Actually, I take that back. It is in a movie, but it is in there as a quote from real life.

the mortal elf · 01-28-2003, 09:43 PM

It rings a bell...just let me post a bit to get my mind working

HCIsland · 01-28-2003, 09:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Actually, I take that back. It is in a movie, but it is in there as a quote from real life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks. I was worried there for a sec. It is familiar and really bugging me now.Maybe I should unthank you. H.C.

Darkside · 01-28-2003, 09:52 PM

Got it!!It was Churchill!! "The Battle for France is over. The Battle for Britain has just begun."

Nuranar · 01-28-2003, 10:06 PM

Darkside, you are officially my hero! Wow, what a relief that I'm not the only one who knew that! How did you know it?Now that the mystery has been revealed , HCIsland, the movie is, appropriately enough, The Battle of Britain (1969, Michael Caine and Christopher Plummer). It opens with a voiceover of a BBC broadcast, relating Churchill's address in Parliament. Immediately afterward, the credits begin, accompanied by the famous "Aces High March." It is an excellent movie; I highly recommend it. My family has seen it many times.Oh, and the reason we all knew the quote: My father tapes favorite segments, usually including powerful music, off of movies. Once a tape is reasonably full, we listen to it in the car wherever we go, incidentally memorizing large portions of movie dialogue. The clips he took from The Battle of Britain include the BBC broadcast right before the "Aces High March." Therefore, every one of us immediately recognized Gandalf's quote.My sincere apologies for the length of this explanation - I'm just trying to make sure I didn't come across sounding obsessed in some way! All that said, what do you think about the use of that quote? What connotations does it bring up for you? Do you think it adds anything to the movie?

HCIsland · 01-28-2003, 10:12 PM

Thanks Darkside.I think it works fine. I think the main purpose of this is to end the movie (well almost the end) telling the audience, the real fun is just starting. Editted to add: Okay, I looked up the Yoda quote: "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has."Not quite the same.H.C.[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

Darkside · 01-28-2003, 10:20 PM

*blushing* I can't take all the credit. My boyfriend told me what it was. I knew it, but just couldn't get it to come to me!

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-29-2003, 08:10 AM

Technically, it's not correct, though. The battle for Middle Earth began the moment Melkor rebelled.

Morgul Queen · 01-30-2003, 09:36 PM

Right on, Saucepan Man!!! And to think that if Melkor hadn't rebelled there would be no Sauron (well technically, there would be a Sauron, but he wouldn't be CALLED Sauron, and he wouldn't be evil) and there wouldn't be a ring and therefore no LotR and even then no Silmarillion or any of the others except the valaquenta...

Nuranar · 01-30-2003, 10:20 PM

True, too true, y'all are both right. I think I haven't made myself clear enough, though. I was just wondering what you all think about the effect the quote has on the movie, when you consider it as a parahrase of Churchill's statement.Specifically: What does the quote add to the movie? What are its connotations, and what extra meaning and poignancy does it create?Perhaps it's my training in literature analysis (thanks to two years of AP English ), but I've a few pretty definite ideas of my own on the subject. I do want to hear what everyone else thinks, though.

02-01-2003, 07:22 AM

Churchill was giving that speech after we had just had the crap kicked out of us by Hitler, so it's a completely new take on the quote, assuming it's genuinely related. In the film, Gandalf is saying that Rohan has been won and now Sauron will throw all of his forces into winning it back (plus everything else on the continent). Churchill was saying "We won't be beaten this time".No real similarities at all.In my mind, the Gandalf quote is much more closely related to the generic expression "We've won the battle, not the war".

the mortal elf · 02-15-2003, 05:36 PM

*snaps fingers* darn. It took me two weeks, but I finally got the quote (without looking at this thread). But, apparently, everyone beat me to it. I just saw it on the history channel (shows how clueless I am). Do you think PJ put that in there on purpose? It seems too exact to be coincidence.

Gorwingel · 02-16-2003, 02:30 AM

All I can say is interesting, I never knew that a line like that would have such a historical connection. That is cool that you found it out (I guess I am not that familiar with WWII history)

mollecon · 02-16-2003, 06:21 PM

Yes, Churchill said that shortly after the French capitulation, in a very dark situation for England. In that way there's a parallel to Gandalfs semi-quote, since Middle Earth haven't by far experienced the full force from Mordor. Other than that, Kayman is right - 'won the battle, not the war' is a more appropiate interpretation.

Nuranar · 02-16-2003, 10:14 PM

Thank you all for your insightful comments, and you in particular, the mortal elf, for resurrecting my thread. kayman, I had not really thought of the analogy of situation, although you are correct that the circumstances do not precisely correspond.I think I was looking for the sense of underlying desperation, the imminence of a bitter struggle to the death. Keep in mind that the Battle of Helm's Deep was not fought against the great Enemy - only against his wayward tool. All previous conflicts with Sauron himself had resulted in defeat for the forces of good. In the movie at least, I point to Osgiliath.They were up against the wall. It was down to the wire. Either the defenders of Minas Tirith would prevail, or Gondor and the free world of Middle-earth would fall. If I may personify the White City: “Après moi, le déluge.”[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Nuranar ]

Meela · 02-17-2003, 02:30 PM

is that a famous quote (the one that was on everyone's tongue tip)? cos i just know the ttt one. i would never have associated it with anything else

Nuranar · 02-17-2003, 03:44 PM

Actually, I really couldn't say how famous it is. I think the only reason I know it is because of the movie The Battle of Britain that my family and I have seen several dozen times. That's saying a lot, because I love history and my mind tends to hang on to miscellaneous facts and quotes.Of course, I am over here in the U.S. "Over there," perhaps it is better known - as indeed it should be.

01-28-2003, 08:34 PM	#1
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	Does This Quote Mean Anything To You? Seeing the Two Towers for the first time, I could not believe my ears when I heard the following quote. Every single member of my family was just as amazed as I.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The battle for Helm’s Deep is over. The battle for Middle-Earth is about to begin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Apart from its literal meaning, there is a tribute that <I>no one</I> I have talked to (outside of my family) noticed. I reserve the right to speak thus abstrusely until some of you demonstrate that my family is not the only one in the world that knows...well, I think I'll end there. <p>[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Nuranar ] __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

01-28-2003, 09:24 PM	#2
Darkside Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Humid Orlando Posts: 34	I know this one..... I think. AAAARRRGG! It's on the tip on my keyboard!!! __________________ "But it seems impossible, somehow, to feel gloomy or depressed in this place." ~ Pippin

01-28-2003, 09:30 PM	#3
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	You're not talking Attack of the Clones are you? When Yoda says, "The Clone Wars have begun" or something like that. Maybe it was more, "Clone Wars, begun they have". <P>I don't think that was intended at all. I'm sure we can find other movies with similar lines.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-28-2003, 09:37 PM	#4
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	No, it's not from another movie at all. This is real life.<P>Actually, I take that back. It <I>is</I> in a movie, but it is in there as a quote from real life. __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

01-28-2003, 09:43 PM	#5
the mortal elf Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Posts: 201	It rings a bell...just let me post a bit to get my mind working __________________ My imaginary friend says you have problems.

01-28-2003, 09:52 PM	#6
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Actually, I take that back. It is in a movie, but it is in there as a quote from real life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks. I was worried there for a sec. <P>It is familiar and really bugging me now.<P>Maybe I should unthank you. <P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-28-2003, 09:52 PM	#7
Darkside Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Humid Orlando Posts: 34	Got it!!<P>It was Churchill!! "The Battle for France is over. The Battle for Britain has just begun." __________________ "But it seems impossible, somehow, to feel gloomy or depressed in this place." ~ Pippin

01-28-2003, 10:06 PM	#8
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	<B>Darkside</B>, you are officially my hero! Wow, what a relief that I'm not the only one who knew that! How did you know it?<P>Now that the mystery has been revealed , <B>HCIsland</B>, the movie is, appropriately enough, <I>The Battle of Britain</I> (1969, Michael Caine and Christopher Plummer). It opens with a voiceover of a BBC broadcast, relating Churchill's address in Parliament. Immediately afterward, the credits begin, accompanied by the famous "Aces High March." It is an excellent movie; I highly recommend it. My family has seen it many times.<P>Oh, and the reason we all knew the quote: My father tapes favorite segments, usually including powerful music, off of movies. Once a tape is reasonably full, we listen to it in the car wherever we go, incidentally memorizing large portions of movie dialogue. The clips he took from <I>The Battle of Britain</I> include the BBC broadcast right before the "Aces High March." Therefore, every one of us immediately recognized Gandalf's quote.<P>My sincere apologies for the length of this explanation - I'm just trying to make sure I didn't come across sounding obsessed in some way! <P>All that said, what do you think about the use of that quote? What connotations does it bring up for you? Do you think it adds anything to the movie? __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

01-28-2003, 10:12 PM	#9
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	Thanks Darkside.<P>I think it works fine. I think the main purpose of this is to end the movie (well almost the end) telling the audience, the real fun is just starting. <P>Editted to add: Okay, I looked up the Yoda quote: "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has."<P>Not quite the same.<P>H.C.<p>[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ] __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-28-2003, 10:20 PM	#10
Darkside Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Humid Orlando Posts: 34	blushing <P>I can't take all the credit. My boyfriend told me what it was. I knew it, but just couldn't get it to come to me! __________________ "But it seems impossible, somehow, to feel gloomy or depressed in this place." ~ Pippin

01-29-2003, 08:10 AM	#11
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Technically, it's not correct, though. The battle for Middle Earth began the moment Melkor rebelled. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-30-2003, 09:36 PM	#12
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	Right on, Saucepan Man!!!<BR>And to think that if Melkor hadn't rebelled there would be no Sauron (well technically, there would be a Sauron, but he wouldn't be CALLED Sauron, and he wouldn't be evil) and there wouldn't be a ring and therefore no LotR and even then no Silmarillion or any of the others except the valaquenta... __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

01-30-2003, 10:20 PM	#13
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	True, too true, y'all are both right. I think I haven't made myself clear enough, though. I was just wondering what you all think about the effect the quote has on the movie, when you consider it as a parahrase of Churchill's statement.<P>Specifically: What does the quote add to the movie? What are its connotations, and what extra meaning and poignancy does it create?<P>Perhaps it's my training in literature analysis (thanks to two years of AP English ), but I've a few pretty definite ideas of my own on the subject. I do want to hear what everyone else thinks, though. __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

02-01-2003, 07:22 AM	#14
kayman Guest Posts: n/a	Churchill was giving that speech after we had just had the crap kicked out of us by Hitler, so it's a completely new take on the quote, assuming it's genuinely related. In the film, Gandalf is saying that Rohan has been won and now Sauron will throw all of his forces into winning it back (plus everything else on the continent). Churchill was saying "We won't be beaten this time".<P>No real similarities at all.<P>In my mind, the Gandalf quote is much more closely related to the generic expression "We've won the battle, not the war".

02-15-2003, 05:36 PM	#15
the mortal elf Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Posts: 201	snaps fingers darn. It took me two weeks, but I finally got the quote (without looking at this thread). But, apparently, everyone beat me to it. I just saw it on the history channel (shows how clueless I am). Do you think PJ put that in there on purpose? It seems too exact to be coincidence. __________________ My imaginary friend says you have problems.

02-16-2003, 02:30 AM	#16
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	All I can say is interesting, I never knew that a line like that would have such a historical connection. That is cool that you found it out (I guess I am not that familiar with WWII history) __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

02-16-2003, 06:21 PM	#17
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Yes, Churchill said that shortly after the French capitulation, in a very dark situation for England. In <I>that</I> way there's a parallel to Gandalfs semi-quote, since Middle Earth haven't by far experienced the full force from Mordor. Other than that, Kayman is right - 'won the battle, not the war' is a more appropiate interpretation.

02-16-2003, 10:14 PM	#18
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	Thank you all for your insightful comments, and you in particular, <B>the mortal elf</B>, for resurrecting my thread. <P><B>kayman</B>, I had not really thought of the analogy of situation, although you are correct that the circumstances do not precisely correspond.<P>I think I was looking for the sense of underlying desperation, the imminence of a bitter struggle to the death. Keep in mind that the Battle of Helm's Deep was not fought against the great Enemy - only against his wayward tool. All previous conflicts with Sauron himself had resulted in defeat for the forces of good. In the movie at least, I point to Osgiliath.<P>They were up against the wall. It was down to the wire. Either the defenders of Minas Tirith would prevail, or Gondor and the free world of Middle-earth would fall. If I may personify the White City: “Après moi, le déluge.”<p>[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Nuranar ] __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

02-17-2003, 02:30 PM	#19
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	is that a famous quote (the one that was on everyone's tongue tip)? cos i just know the ttt one. i would never have associated it with anything else __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

02-17-2003, 03:44 PM	#20
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	Actually, I really couldn't say how famous it is. I <I>think</I> the only reason I know it is because of the movie <I>The Battle of Britain</I> that my family and I have seen several dozen times. That's saying a lot, because I love history and my mind tends to hang on to miscellaneous facts and quotes.<P>Of course, I am over here in the U.S. "Over there," perhaps it is better known - as indeed it should be. __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey