Tossing a dwarf - the real story! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Birdland · 03-21-2002, 08:28 AM

Was reading the Fav Quote thread and noticed that the line "Nobody tosses this dwarf" was thought to have some rather unsavory connotations.Here the real story - Back in the excessive 1980s, a lot of bars and clubs in California, New York and other wealthier cities developed a game called "Dwarf Tossing". Actual dwarfs or "little people" were hired so that club patrons could pick them up and throw them. The winner being who could throw them the furthest. I think a variation of the game was "dwarf bowling", where the dwarf would sit on a mat and be slid down a bowling lane into pins.It was a stupid, but very popular game with drunk frat boys and people with more money then sense. It was also very controversial at the time because it was considered to be degrading to "little people" (Though many who were interviewed about at the time took the attitude "Eh...it's a living.")It has NOTHING to do with "tossing" in the British sense of the word. John Ryes-Davies is old enough to remember when when this bar game was popular, and probably thought it was a funny "in-joke" - which it is, if you remember the 80s! (Ahh, the 80s...Birdie has another flashback... )A-hem...No, I've NEVER tossed a dwarf! You had to have money to pay for that privilege. Plus, I thought it was pretty stupid thing to do, also. So there you have it. "Dwarf tossing." If you want to know more, look it up on the Internet under "80's fads".

Glenethor · 03-21-2002, 09:48 AM

That's what I thought it was

03-21-2002, 10:14 AM

Hmm do you think they would include in-jokes in the movie? I personally don't think they would refer to such a thing. I just think 'toss' was the most appropriate word, if you use it in the sense it was created for. "Nobody throws a dwarf" sounds wrong.I dunno, just my theory.

Lush · 03-21-2002, 12:09 PM

Of course they'd have in-jokes. They had to have fun somehow with what they were doing. If I was in it, I'd probably "mispronounce" Bilbo's name a few times on camera, or tell Arwen to "walk this way"...

Glenethor · 03-21-2002, 05:41 PM

lol!

Kalimac · 03-21-2002, 09:22 PM

Wasn't there a lawsuit about dwarf-tossing a few months ago? I seem to remember seeing something about the State of Virginia (I think) saying that dwarfs' rights were being violated, though it seemed like a somewhat tenuous assumption since the dwarfs weren't being forced to participate. Well, something like that anyway. John Rhys-Davies being English though, you'd think he'd be aware of the other double meaning...maybe he just wanted to see if he could get it past the editors .

Lush · 03-21-2002, 09:46 PM

And that he did! It was a line not exactly appropriate to the situation, but I have heard it enough to stop cringing.

Birdland · 03-21-2002, 09:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>John Rhys-Davies being English though, you'd think he'd be aware of the other double meaning...maybe he just wanted to see if he could get it past the editors .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, but it's funnier to think about someone trying to pitch Gimli, son of Gloin the length of a barroom. Drunken Texas Frat-Boy: "Whoooo-eeee! Betcha I kin throw that little hairy feller over there a good 20 feet!"Gimli: "Nobody tosses this dwarf!" THWACK!!!!!(Drunken Texas Frat-Boy's head flies a good 20 feet.)

piosenniel · 03-21-2002, 10:41 PM

LOL! your explanation makes the line even funnier!

MYyyPreciousSS · 03-22-2002, 06:27 PM

I don't know what inside joke was supposed to be in the quote or if there was supposed to be at all. I think its funny all by its self.

Fingolas · 03-22-2002, 11:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It has NOTHING to do with "tossing" in the British sense of the word. John Ryes-Davies is old enough to remember when when this bar game was popular, and probably thought it was a funny "in-joke" - which it is, if you remember the 80s! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Birdland, I’ve really wondered about this. I cringed when I heard this line in the movie. Not because of any politically correct concerns, (dwarf tossing in the 80’s), but because of the placement or timing of the line. The way that Tolkien structured this scene in the book, and the way that PJ directed the scene in the movie followed a well known formula. First you slowly build the tension. Remember, nothing happens in Moria for a while, but you can feel it coming. Build the tension…Gimli distraught at Balins tomb. Add more tension… orcs attack with cave troll. Add even more…Frodo injured, run for your lives. You get the picture. Keep building the tension in the reader/audience until the big climactic scene, Gandalf and the Balrog plunging into the abyss. Then you have to provide a release for the reader/audience. In the movie this comes when they emerge from Moria into daylight and weep at their loss. A release of tension for them and the audience. The point is…if you put a crack like “Nobody tosses a Dwarf” into the middle of this scene, you run the risk of breaking the spell so to speak. You could lose that tension that you’ve been building. Especially if you use a line that has more to do with the 20th century than Middle earth. At first I thought that this had to have been a mistake. That this line wasn’t supposed to be funny, and PJ didn’t realize that the audience would take it that way. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that this was wrong. With PJ being from New Zealand, and Davies being from Britain, there is no way they wouldn’t know the connotation of “Tossing”. So I assumed that it had nothing to do with dwarf tossing as we Yanks know it, and everything to do with British slang. Did you read or hear an interview with Davies where he talked about this?? How do you know that it has nothing to do with British slang usage? Just curious.

Glenethor · 03-23-2002, 12:03 AM

I agree with your perception regarding it breaking the spell. It broke my absorption in the scene. I wish he hadn't done it, actually. The other line that did it for me was the 'let's hunt some orc' line.

Thinhyandoiel · 03-23-2002, 12:27 AM

?? I don't know why everyone is so hung up about that "Let's hunt some Orc" line. I didn't mind it at all. Peeps say it's out of character, so maybe I have Aragorn's character all wrong...but I don't think so. *shrugs and goes off to read LOTR again*

Kalimac · 03-23-2002, 12:35 AM

I didn't really mind "Let's hunt some Orc" - Aragorn may be Isildur's heir, but he's been in the wild for a good space, and let's face it, he's not going to talk like a king all the time.Dwarf tossing - now that I think about it a little more (scary thought in itself) it does seem possible that the line was done straight, in a misguided attempt to lighten the situation a bit, with no sly jokes about British or American tossing intended. My only reason for thinking that might be so is that neither Jackson nor Rhys-Davies are terribly young (Good lord, I remember watching my "I, Claudius" DVD and being astonished to see that Rhys-Davies was actually Macro! So he's been around a while). If the British meaning of "toss" is one of those fairly recent slang things they really might not have been aware of it. I'm basing this guess on a nice but getting-up-there comp sci professor I once had, who decided one day to show us how to write a Scheme program to add up a string of numbers. He read off the board "OK, we start the program off with `Define procedure get-sum.'" He spent the rest of the hour wondering why nobody could stop laughing. Of course, "toss" may be one of those expressions that's been around for decades, which would knock that theory on the head. Does anyone know?

Birdland · 03-23-2002, 12:57 AM

No Fingolas, I didn't get Rhys-Davies take on the line. I just can't picture it being anything BUT that interpretation, just as the Barrow-Wights across the pond can't seem to see it in any other light. I do agree with your opinion of the few modern references that were thrown into the movie (though I have to admit I did laugh). As a matter of fact I thought the whole crumbling bridge scene was a bit much, and kind of downplayed the more important scene with the Balrog that was coming up.But lets give PJ credit that he did keep a handle on it and resisted the temptation of many fantasy movies these days to slick up the language and throw in modern references in some misguided attempt to appeal to "today's audiences".Maybe now that the industry has seen how well people responded to the film, even with Tolkien's more "dated" material, we'll see screen writers portraying their characters with more dignity, and less winking and one-liners.So who's gonna e-mail Mr. Rhys-Davies and have him settle the argument?

Fingolas · 03-23-2002, 11:12 AM

Birdland, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As a matter of fact I thought the whole crumbling bridge scene was a bit much, and kind of downplayed the more important scene with the Balrog that was coming up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yea, me too. That particular part of the scene, while nicely done, sure had a Spielberg feel to it didn’t it. It reminded me of the scene in Jurassic Park where the Rover is stuck in the tree and the paleontologist is trying to save the boy while the vehicle keeps sliding down toward them. Fun to watch but also unbelievable. In the case of FOTR, the idea that this column of stone that weighs several hundred thousand tons could be so precariously balanced that a couple of characters that weigh around 300 pounds could make it lean one way or the other is stretching credulity a bit. That’s also why I’m not particularly concerned with the expansion of Arwens role, as long as it is not overdone. It could add to character development and help the audience empathize with Aragorns character. I could see Tolkien doing this. It’s also why I am NOT looking forward to Legolas shield surfing at Helms Deep! Can you picture Tolkien doing that? Boy! It sure seems like I’ve been criticizing things a lot lately. I really do think that PJ did a masterful job and I truly loved this movie. It’s just that these little things kept popping up throughout the film and every time they did they served to jerk me back into the present day and out of Middle Earth. And I suppose that is what really bothered me about them. The wonderful thing about Tolkiens writings is that there was none of that. Once you entered ME, he kept you there, and he did nothing to break the spell. Cheers!

03-21-2002, 08:28 AM	#1
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Tossing a dwarf - the real story! Was reading the Fav Quote thread and noticed that the line "Nobody tosses this dwarf" was thought to have some rather unsavory connotations.<P>Here the real story - Back in the excessive 1980s, a lot of bars and clubs in California, New York and other wealthier cities developed a game called "Dwarf Tossing". Actual dwarfs or "little people" were hired so that club patrons could pick them up and throw them. The winner being who could throw them the furthest. I think a variation of the game was "dwarf bowling", where the dwarf would sit on a mat and be slid down a bowling lane into pins.<P>It was a stupid, but very popular game with drunk frat boys and people with more money then sense. It was also very controversial at the time because it was considered to be degrading to "little people" (Though many who were interviewed about at the time took the attitude "Eh...it's a living.")<P>It has NOTHING to do with "tossing" in the British sense of the word. John Ryes-Davies is old enough to remember when when this bar game was popular, and probably thought it was a funny "in-joke" - which it is, if you remember the 80s! (Ahh, the 80s...Birdie has another flashback... )<P>A-hem...No, I've NEVER tossed a dwarf! You had to have money to pay for that privilege. Plus, I thought it was pretty stupid thing to do, also. <P>So there you have it. "Dwarf tossing." If you want to know more, look it up on the Internet under "80's fads".

03-21-2002, 09:48 AM	#2
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	That's what I thought it was __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-21-2002, 10:14 AM	#3
louise1583 Guest Posts: n/a	Hmm do you think they would include in-jokes in the movie? I personally don't think they would refer to such a thing. I just think 'toss' was the most appropriate word, if you use it in the sense it was created for. "Nobody throws a dwarf" sounds wrong.<P>I dunno, just my theory.

03-21-2002, 12:09 PM	#4
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	<I>Of course</I> they'd have in-jokes. They had to have fun somehow with what they were doing. If I was in it, I'd probably "mispronounce" Bilbo's name a few times on camera, or tell Arwen to "walk this way"... __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-21-2002, 05:41 PM	#5
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	lol!<BR> __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-21-2002, 09:22 PM	#6
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Wasn't there a lawsuit about dwarf-tossing a few months ago? I seem to remember seeing something about the State of Virginia (I think) saying that dwarfs' rights were being violated, though it seemed like a somewhat tenuous assumption since the dwarfs weren't being forced to participate. Well, something like that anyway. <P>John Rhys-Davies being English though, you'd think he'd be aware of the other double meaning...maybe he just wanted to see if he could get it past the editors . __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-21-2002, 09:46 PM	#7
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	And that he did!<BR>It was a line not exactly appropriate to the situation, but I have heard it enough to stop cringing. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-21-2002, 09:53 PM	#8
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>John Rhys-Davies being English though, you'd think he'd be aware of the other double meaning...maybe he just wanted to see if he could get it past the editors .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, but it's funnier to think about someone trying to pitch Gimli, son of Gloin the length of a barroom. <P>Drunken Texas Frat-Boy: "Whoooo-eeee! Betcha I kin throw that little hairy feller over there a good 20 feet!"<P>Gimli: "Nobody tosses this dwarf!" <BR><I>THWACK!!!!!</I><P>(Drunken Texas Frat-Boy's head flies a good 20 feet.)

03-21-2002, 10:41 PM	#9
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	LOL! your explanation makes the line even funnier! __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-22-2002, 06:27 PM	#10
MYyyPreciousSS Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the Here and Now Posts: 113	I don't know what inside joke was supposed to be in the quote or if there was supposed to be at all. I think its funny all by its self. __________________ Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her. "My Preciousss" - the line that started the obsession.

03-22-2002, 11:52 PM	#11
Fingolas Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: behind that tree over there Posts: 32	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It has NOTHING to do with "tossing" in the British sense of the word. John Ryes-Davies is old enough to remember when when this bar game was popular, and probably thought it was a funny "in-joke" - which it is, if you remember the 80s! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey Birdland,<BR> <BR>I’ve really wondered about this. I cringed when I heard this line in the movie. Not because of any politically correct concerns, (dwarf tossing in the 80’s), but because of the placement or timing of the line.<BR> The way that Tolkien structured this scene in the book, and the way that PJ directed the scene in the movie followed a well known formula. First you slowly build the tension. Remember, nothing happens in Moria for a while, but you can feel it coming. Build the tension…Gimli distraught at Balins tomb. Add more tension… orcs attack with cave troll. Add even more…Frodo injured, run for your lives. You get the picture. Keep building the tension in the reader/audience until the big climactic scene, Gandalf and the Balrog plunging into the abyss. Then you have to provide a release for the reader/audience. In the movie this comes when they emerge from Moria into daylight and weep at their loss. A release of tension for them and the audience. The point is…if you put a crack like “Nobody tosses a Dwarf” into the middle of this scene, you run the risk of breaking the spell so to speak. You could lose that tension that you’ve been building. Especially if you use a line that has more to do with the 20th century than Middle earth.<BR> At first I thought that this had to have been a mistake. That this line wasn’t supposed to be funny, and PJ didn’t realize that the audience would take it that way. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that this was wrong. <BR> With PJ being from New Zealand, and Davies being from Britain, there is no way they wouldn’t know the connotation of “Tossing”. So I assumed that it had nothing to do with dwarf tossing as we Yanks know it, and everything to do with British slang.<BR> <P>Did you read or hear an interview with Davies where he talked about this?? <BR>How do you know that it has nothing to do with British slang usage?<BR>Just curious. __________________ It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

03-23-2002, 12:03 AM	#12
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	I agree with your perception regarding it breaking the spell. It broke my absorption in the scene. I wish he hadn't done it, actually. The other line that did it for me was the 'let's hunt some orc' line. __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-23-2002, 12:27 AM	#13
Thinhyandoiel Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 187	?? I don't know why everyone is so hung up about that "Let's hunt some Orc" line. I didn't mind it at all. Peeps say it's out of character, so maybe I have Aragorn's character all wrong...but I don't think so. shrugs and goes off to read LOTR again __________________ In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen Caled veleg, ethuiannen

03-23-2002, 12:35 AM	#14
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I didn't really mind "Let's hunt some Orc" - Aragorn may be Isildur's heir, but he's been in the wild for a good space, and let's face it, he's not going to talk like a king all the time.<P>Dwarf tossing - now that I think about it a little more (scary thought in itself) it does seem possible that the line was done straight, in a misguided attempt to lighten the situation a bit, with no sly jokes about British or American tossing intended. My only reason for thinking that might be so is that neither Jackson nor Rhys-Davies are terribly young (Good lord, I remember watching my "I, Claudius" DVD and being astonished to see that Rhys-Davies was actually Macro! So he's been around a while). If the British meaning of "toss" is one of those fairly recent slang things they really might not have been aware of it. I'm basing this guess on a nice but getting-up-there comp sci professor I once had, who decided one day to show us how to write a Scheme program to add up a string of numbers. He read off the board "OK, we start the program off with `Define procedure get-sum.'" He spent the rest of the hour wondering why nobody could stop laughing. <P>Of course, "toss" may be one of those expressions that's been around for decades, which would knock that theory on the head. Does anyone know? __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-23-2002, 12:57 AM	#15
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	No Fingolas, I didn't get Rhys-Davies take on the line. I just can't picture it being anything BUT that interpretation, just as the Barrow-Wights across the pond can't seem to see it in any other light. <P>I do agree with your opinion of the few modern references that were thrown into the movie (though I have to admit I did laugh). As a matter of fact I thought the whole crumbling bridge scene was a bit much, and kind of downplayed the more important scene with the Balrog that was coming up.<P>But lets give PJ credit that he did keep a handle on it and resisted the temptation of many fantasy movies these days to slick up the language and throw in modern references in some misguided attempt to appeal to "today's audiences".<P>Maybe now that the industry has seen how well people responded to the film, even with Tolkien's more "dated" material, we'll see screen writers portraying their characters with more dignity, and less winking and one-liners.<P>So who's gonna e-mail Mr. Rhys-Davies and have him settle the argument?

03-23-2002, 11:12 AM	#16
Fingolas Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: behind that tree over there Posts: 32	Birdland,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As a matter of fact I thought the whole crumbling bridge scene was a bit much, and kind of downplayed the more important scene with the Balrog that was coming up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yea, me too. That particular part of the scene, while nicely done, sure had a Spielberg feel to it didn’t it. It reminded me of the scene in Jurassic Park where the Rover is stuck in the tree and the paleontologist is trying to save the boy while the vehicle keeps sliding down toward them. Fun to watch but also unbelievable. In the case of FOTR, the idea that this column of stone that weighs several hundred thousand tons could be so precariously balanced that a couple of characters that weigh around 300 pounds could make it lean one way or the other is stretching credulity a bit. That’s also why I’m not particularly concerned with the expansion of Arwens role, as long as it is not overdone. It could add to character development and help the audience empathize with Aragorns character. I could see Tolkien doing this. It’s also why I am NOT looking forward to Legolas shield surfing at Helms Deep! Can you picture Tolkien doing that?<BR> Boy! It sure seems like I’ve been criticizing things a lot lately. I really do think that PJ did a masterful job and I truly loved this movie. It’s just that these little things kept popping up throughout the film and every time they did they served to jerk me back into the present day and out of Middle Earth. And I suppose that is what really bothered me about them. The wonderful thing about Tolkiens writings is that there was none of that. Once you entered ME, he kept you there, and he did nothing to break the spell. Cheers! __________________ It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.