Vulcans, umm, I mean Elves.... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ReededGoat · 12-23-2002, 07:52 PM

I've been thinking about something in TTT lately that bugs me, because it reinforces something that bugged me in FOTR. First of all, I feel that besides the main Elven characters (they look great...except for Haldir) the elves look a lot like vulcans from the first run of Star Trek. It also seems like PJ and Co.'s interpretation of them is as a cold, detached race of beings. It seemed that way in FOTR, but Haldir's reaction to Aragorn hugging him really emphasizes it. That's too bad, since the elves are ANYTHING but cold and detached.Thoughts?

elsye · 12-23-2002, 08:08 PM

I thought that the "coldness" was more of a higher state of mind. We know that elves are very intelligent and in a sense of more noble composure than men. So, like with royalty, they seem more distant. I can't imagine seeing a whole court of nobility running up and hugging eachother in battle.

ReededGoat · 12-23-2002, 08:14 PM

I would NEVER associate a higher state of mind with being cold. Have you ever seen footage of spiritual leaders like Gandhi or the Dalai Lama? No coldness there. I understand what you're saying, but this 'detachment' takes away from the idea that elves are passionate and live life to the fullest and embody true love for creation.

elsye · 12-23-2002, 08:34 PM

No, I've never watched footage on Gandhi or the Dalai Lama. Those people are not of interest to me. I couldn't come up with the right words at the moment, so what I said sounded bad. I meant that elves are very much smarter than any of us. They are not even of our species so I have no problem that perhaps they show eachother love differently.

**lindil** · 12-23-2002, 08:44 PM

Haldir's reaction was weird, maybe it was his way of saying, " hey I am just trying to get a free ticket to Valinor, since galadriel has never deigned to tell us where the grey havens are".

Birdland · 12-23-2002, 08:53 PM

I think P.J. is just sticking to the pop culture idea of how immortal, infinitely wise, "higher beings" are supposed to act. Frankly, I think the whole lot of them were walking around like they had a Simaril stuck up their butts.Of course, Tolkien's vision of elves changed a lot between the Hobbit and LoTR. They do act much more serious in the latter. But then, they probably had a lot on their minds by that time. Still, I think Sam does make a reference to seeing some Elves acting "merry as children". Too bad we don't get to see some of that in the film. I bet some of those Elves could party hardy![ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Liriodendron · 12-23-2002, 09:23 PM

Well, I do not think PJ made the elves beautiful enough! I agree with the opening post. So much effort was put into the hideousness of the orcs, but the only special effects the elves seemed to get was a serious eyebrow plucking and ugly spock ears! The light around the group of elves leaving ME in the extended version of FoTR was nice, but I think they could have jazzed the elves up a little more. If it wasn't for the beautiful music, you would have a hard time figuring out some of those actors were elves.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 12-23-2002, 09:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Still, I think Sam does make a reference to seeing some Elves acting "merry as children". Too bad we don't get to see some of that in the film. I bet some of those Elves could party hardy! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's funny, because I remember seeing, on some special, clips of female elves running through the woods quite joyously. There is even a pic of them in the FOTR student planner. So, perhaps PJ did film some of this, but it did not end up in the final or extended cut. I do think, though, that the extended DVD makes them seem a little more light-hearted than the theatrical version.

12-25-2002, 05:09 PM

I think the elves were wonderfull. Sure they were cool and aloof, but when the movies take place it is a pretty serious time in middle earth. So the must show a stoic thoughtful demenor.

DaughterofVana · 12-25-2002, 06:15 PM

The part Birdland mentioned--about Sam saying that the elves were as "merry as children"--was what he said about Lady Galadriel in FOTR. I'm on vacation (holiday?) visiting my relatives for Christmas so I don't have my books with me, but ver batum it was "at times she seems noble and proud, but at the same time she's as gay as a hobbit lass with flowers in her hair, if you take my meaning."Well, anyway, the whole quote alludes to the different "sides" of the elves. In TT I think that the more emotional side was attempted to be portrayed by the pining Arwen, so in all fairness maybe PJ was doing his best. Regardless of how in various opinions that instance warrants a plotline, for what we have movie-wise I think that's the best example so far (but I can stand to be corrected). I always harbored the opinion that elves behaved emotionally in the same way as men--on a higher level, yes, but also more passionately. As an example, the elves of the Sil are anything but removed and distant. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well, I do not think PJ made the elves beautiful enough! I agree with the opening post. So much effort was put into the hideousness of the orcs, but the only special effects the elves seemed to get was a serious eyebrow plucking and ugly spock ears! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can't speak for the movie trilogy in it's entirety--a LOT of things could have been improved on, and that is no exception--but I guess one must take things as they come. At least we didn't get orcs running around in fake, pull-over-your-head rubber masks! -'Vana[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ][ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ]

Birdland · 12-25-2002, 06:45 PM

Ha! Daughter of Vana. Gotcha! The quote I was thinking of was in the chapter "Many Meetings": <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children. And the music and the singing - not that I have had the time or the heart for much listening..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not that you hear much toe-tappin' Elf tunes in the movie. Most of the Elven music is kinda Gregorian chant-y. Shame P.J. didn't film the feast scene in Rivendell, but that might have bogged things down a bit.[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Liriodendron · 12-25-2002, 08:03 PM

Ha! You know, I really wouldn't have minded fake, pull-over your head rubber masks! Just be sure their arms are real long!

12-23-2002, 07:52 PM	#1
ReededGoat Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 32	Vulcans, umm, I mean Elves.... I've been thinking about something in TTT lately that bugs me, because it reinforces something that bugged me in FOTR. First of all, I feel that besides the main Elven characters (they look great...except for Haldir) the elves look a lot like vulcans from the first run of Star Trek. It also seems like PJ and Co.'s interpretation of them is as a cold, detached race of beings. It seemed that way in FOTR, but Haldir's reaction to Aragorn hugging him really emphasizes it. That's too bad, since the elves are ANYTHING but cold and detached.<P>Thoughts?

12-23-2002, 08:08 PM	#2
elsye Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Port of Angels Posts: 28	I thought that the "coldness" was more of a higher state of mind. We know that elves are very intelligent and in a sense of more noble composure than men. So, like with royalty, they seem more distant. I can't imagine seeing a whole court of nobility running up and hugging eachother in battle.<BR> __________________ Is there anything greater than the love of Jesus?

12-23-2002, 08:34 PM	#4
elsye Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Port of Angels Posts: 28	No, I've never watched footage on Gandhi or the Dalai Lama. Those people are not of interest to me. I couldn't come up with the right words at the moment, so what I said sounded bad. I meant that elves are very much smarter than any of us. They are not even of our species so I have no problem that perhaps they show eachother love differently. __________________ Is there anything greater than the love of Jesus?

12-23-2002, 08:44 PM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Haldir's reaction was weird, maybe it was his way of saying, <I>" hey I am just trying to get a free ticket to Valinor, since galadriel has never deigned to tell us where the grey havens are"</I>. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

12-23-2002, 08:53 PM	#6
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I think P.J. is just sticking to the pop culture idea of how immortal, infinitely wise, "higher beings" are supposed to act. Frankly, I think the whole lot of them were walking around like they had a Simaril stuck up their butts.<P>Of course, Tolkien's vision of elves changed a lot between the Hobbit and LoTR. They do act much more serious in the latter. But then, they probably had a lot on their minds by that time. Still, I think Sam does make a reference to seeing some Elves acting "merry as children". <P>Too bad we don't get to see some of that in the film. I bet some of those Elves could party hardy!<p>[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

12-23-2002, 08:14 PM	#3
ReededGoat Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 32	I would NEVER associate a higher state of mind with being cold. Have you ever seen footage of spiritual leaders like Gandhi or the Dalai Lama? No coldness there. I understand what you're saying, but this 'detachment' takes away from the idea that elves are passionate and live life to the fullest and embody true love for creation.

12-23-2002, 09:23 PM	#7
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	Well, I do not think PJ made the elves beautiful enough! I agree with the opening post. So much effort was put into the hideousness of the orcs, but the only special effects the elves seemed to get was a serious eyebrow plucking and ugly spock ears! The light around the group of elves leaving ME in the extended version of FoTR was nice, but I think they could have jazzed the elves up a little more. If it wasn't for the beautiful music, you would have a hard time figuring out some of those actors were elves. __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com

12-23-2002, 09:27 PM	#8
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Still, I think Sam does make a reference to seeing some Elves acting "merry as children". <P>Too bad we don't get to see some of that in the film. I bet some of those Elves could party hardy!<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's funny, because I remember seeing, on some special, clips of female elves running through the woods quite joyously. There is even a pic of them in the FOTR student planner.<BR>So, perhaps PJ did film some of this, but it did not end up in the final or extended cut. I do think, though, that the extended DVD makes them seem a little more light-hearted than the theatrical version. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

12-25-2002, 05:09 PM	#9
Cytherea_thelittlehobbit Guest Posts: n/a	I think the elves were wonderfull. Sure they were cool and aloof, but when the movies take place it is a pretty serious time in middle earth. So the must show a stoic thoughtful demenor.

12-25-2002, 06:15 PM	#10
DaughterofVana Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: twirling contentedly in a flower-filled field Posts: 134	The part Birdland mentioned--about Sam saying that the elves were as "merry as children"--was what he said about Lady Galadriel in FOTR. I'm on vacation (holiday?) visiting my relatives for Christmas so I don't have my books with me, but ver batum it was "at times she seems noble and proud, but at the same time she's as gay as a hobbit lass with flowers in her hair, if you take my meaning."<P>Well, anyway, the whole quote alludes to the different "sides" of the elves. In TT I think that the more emotional side was attempted to be portrayed by the pining Arwen, so in all fairness maybe PJ was doing his best. Regardless of how in various opinions that instance warrants a plotline, for what we have movie-wise I think that's the best example so far (but I can stand to be corrected). I always harbored the opinion that elves behaved emotionally in the same way as men--on a higher level, yes, but also more passionately. As an example, the elves of the Sil are anything but removed and distant.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well, I do not think PJ made the elves beautiful enough! I agree with the opening post. So much effort was put into the hideousness of the orcs, but the only special effects the elves seemed to get was a serious eyebrow plucking and ugly spock ears! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can't speak for the movie trilogy in it's entirety--a LOT of things could have been improved on, and that is no exception--but I guess one must take things as they come. At least we didn't get orcs running around in fake, pull-over-your-head rubber masks! <P>-'Vana<P>[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ]<p>[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ] __________________ "There is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes." Hi! Did you miss me?

12-25-2002, 06:45 PM	#11
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Ha! Daughter of Vana. Gotcha! The quote I was thinking of was in the chapter "Many Meetings":<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"And Elves, sir! Elves here, and Elves there! Some like kings, terrible and splendid; and some as merry as children. And the music and the singing - not that I have had the time or the heart for much listening..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not that you hear much toe-tappin' Elf tunes in the movie. Most of the Elven music is kinda Gregorian chant-y. Shame P.J. didn't film the feast scene in Rivendell, but that might have bogged things down a bit.<p>[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

12-25-2002, 08:03 PM	#12
Liriodendron Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 527	Ha! You know, I really wouldn't have minded fake, pull-over your head rubber masks! Just be sure their arms are real long! __________________ http://www.lizmargason.com