Valinor = Heaven for Elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kiah · 07-19-2003, 10:46 PM

The Undying Lands remind me alot of what Heaven on Earth for the Elves. I believe that when the mortals died, the men , dwarves, hobbits, and goblins, that they would go to Heaven. The Elves who are immortal and therefore cannot die would have to have some resting place for them and so there is Valinor. Does it sound right? And another thing.. Luthien Tinviel game up her immortality and became mortal so did she give up a mortal heaven for a immortal Heaven? Did she give up immortality of the materialistic kind for a more spiritual immortality? Anyone know?

07-20-2003, 02:49 AM

I found this as I was searching the web:

The realm of the Valinor is a magical land, far beyond the western seas, where Elves and angels dwell. It is not heaven, not for humankind, and really not for Elven kind. It is simply a paradise which has been denied to Men (although another paradise was set up for Men). Heaven is where God dwells, Iluvatar, Eru, the One, the All-father. In the end we may all meet up there, Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Angels. Or we may not. We don't really know for sure.

I have no idea how true it is but I hope it helps [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]!

Lyra Greenleaf · 07-20-2003, 05:02 AM

The continent of Aman (which Valinor was on) was used by the Valar as a haven from Morgoth. When the Elves awoke they took them there to protect them from him. I can't remember why they didn't take the men there too, but I think it had to do with the "doom of men", i.e. mortality. Where men go after death was an unknown factor. If Elves die they go to the Halls of Mandos, but they can be "reincarnated". The length of time they have to wait for this varies, according to the good they have done in their lives.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 07-20-2003, 06:49 AM

In some sense, the Undying Lands are the Heaven for Elves. As Elves cannot leave the Circles of the World this is the closest thing to Heaven that we can reach, at least, before the Dagor Dagorath [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But, strictly speaking, I think that the Undying Lands are closer to the Lost Paradise (the Garden of Eden) which is a material 'Heaven' that now is forbidden to Men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

burrahobbit · 07-20-2003, 08:36 AM

Almaren is closer to the Garden of Eden.

Lord of Angmar · 07-20-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

I believe that when the mortals died, the men , dwarves, hobbits, and goblins, that they would go to Heaven.

First of all, I don't think that the goblins will be going to heaven or paradise anytime soon [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Perhaps Tolkien envisioned a purgatory for the servants of Morgoth and Sauron (and evil beings in general), between the world and the place where mortals go when they die. Secondly, I believe the dwarves go to the halls of Aule, their creator. If anyone can find any text to support or debate any of my arguments I would welcome it... I shall do some research myself.

[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

Kiah · 07-20-2003, 06:27 PM

quote:
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First of all, I don't think that the goblins will be going to heaven or paradise anytime soon
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Why do you think that burrahobbit? I don't believe that all goblins are bad. No entire race is evil.. well besides the orcs that is.. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Frodo Baggins · 07-20-2003, 08:57 PM

Kiah, dear, Goblins ARE orcs. Goblins and orcs are essentially the same in Middle-Earth.

07-19-2003, 10:46 PM	#1
Kiah Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2003 Location: When I figure it out I will tell you Posts: 26	Valinor = Heaven for Elves? The Undying Lands remind me alot of what Heaven on Earth for the Elves. I believe that when the mortals died, the men , dwarves, hobbits, and goblins, that they would go to Heaven. The Elves who are immortal and therefore cannot die would have to have some resting place for them and so there is Valinor. Does it sound right? And another thing.. Luthien Tinviel game up her immortality and became mortal so did she give up a mortal heaven for a immortal Heaven? Did she give up immortality of the materialistic kind for a more spiritual immortality? Anyone know? __________________ In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

07-20-2003, 05:02 AM	#3
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	The continent of Aman (which Valinor was on) was used by the Valar as a haven from Morgoth. When the Elves awoke they took them there to protect them from him. I can't remember why they didn't take the men there too, but I think it had to do with the "doom of men", i.e. mortality. Where men go after death was an unknown factor. If Elves die they go to the Halls of Mandos, but they can be "reincarnated". The length of time they have to wait for this varies, according to the good they have done in their lives. __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

07-20-2003, 06:49 AM	#4
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	In some sense, the Undying Lands are the Heaven for Elves. As Elves cannot leave the Circles of the World this is the closest thing to Heaven that we can reach, at least, before the Dagor Dagorath [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But, strictly speaking, I think that the Undying Lands are closer to the Lost Paradise (the Garden of Eden) which is a material 'Heaven' that now is forbidden to Men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

07-20-2003, 08:36 AM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Almaren is closer to the Garden of Eden. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-20-2003, 06:27 PM	#7
Kiah Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2003 Location: When I figure it out I will tell you Posts: 26	quote: -------------------------------------------- First of all, I don't think that the goblins will be going to heaven or paradise anytime soon -------------------------------------------- Why do you think that burrahobbit? I don't believe that all goblins are bad. No entire race is evil.. well besides the orcs that is.. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

07-20-2003, 02:49 AM	#2
Malhwesta Guest Posts: n/a	I found this as I was searching the web: The realm of the Valinor is a magical land, far beyond the western seas, where Elves and angels dwell. It is not heaven, not for humankind, and really not for Elven kind. It is simply a paradise which has been denied to Men (although another paradise was set up for Men). Heaven is where God dwells, Iluvatar, Eru, the One, the All-father. In the end we may all meet up there, Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Angels. Or we may not. We don't really know for sure. I have no idea how true it is but I hope it helps [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]!

07-20-2003, 08:57 PM	#8
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Kiah, dear, Goblins ARE orcs. Goblins and orcs are essentially the same in Middle-Earth. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."