Why Moria? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

steve · 07-18-2003, 10:53 PM

Anotehr question like my one about the morannon. Why did the fellowship decide to go through Moria after hey learned of Saruman's trechery, could they not have gone south like they intended but intstead of taking the gap of rohan, could they not have crossed over the white mountains at the west
then moved east to Dol Amaroth. Taking ships from Dol Amaroth up the Anduin to Osgoliath and Minas Tirith?

**lindil** · 07-18-2003, 11:05 PM

3 problems;
1> as stated in the FotR, Boromir I believe suggested this very thing, and was countered [By Gandalf? Aragorn?] that it would take way to long.

2> to even do that still puts you closer to Isengard than any other power.

3> Clearly Gandalf sensed on sime level that the party heading out from Lothlorien was crucial, as proved to be the case.

*The Vial of Galadriel was crucial in getting through the only possible pass into Mordor.

* merry and Pippin, were essential to rousing the ents at the right time.

* Aragorn and Eomer also needed to begin to forge thier alliance of mutual respect, etc...

steve · 07-18-2003, 11:07 PM

Good points, very good points, bit that is hidsight, at that time if they moved south west away from the mountains it probable would have taken less time then to go through moria or even the gap of rohan

I am speaking directly of time and travel wise, tho

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: steve ]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 07-19-2003, 01:51 AM

Faster to go to the Gap of Rohan?

Quote:

Such a journey may take a year or more.

A long trek through the deep winter wilderness, and through the semi-hostile Dunland, would not have been a good idea -- neither would it have been faster. Moria took about three days, and was far better in terms of secrecy; the Ring needed to be kept hidden and they had to go by stealth where it was possible. I believe Gandalf stated secrecy as one of the reasons for undertaking the Moria route? Either way, if you have a look at this part of FoTR it tells you, if I remember rightly, why Moria was the chosen.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 07-19-2003, 09:19 AM

Steve, you may find some useful information in this thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=003314

doug*platypus · 07-20-2003, 03:22 AM

I like the fact that Moria was presented as the most desperate of all the options, only to be used because of extreme necessity and lack of time. Much like the Paths of the Dead later in the story, except that the Fellowship is affected far more seriously by their passage through Moria.

By passing through Moria, Gandalf begins the process of rebirth that will make him "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" (I'm pretty sure they stole that bit from Star Wars), Aragorn assumes a greater leadership in his transition to the throne, and the Fellowship eventually passes out and through the woods of Lothlorien. It's almost as if Lorien and Galadriel are the rewards for making such a difficult passage through the mountains. Gap of Rohan, Schmap of Schmrohan.

Måns · 08-10-2003, 06:29 AM

Who stole from who? Well, anyway No one planned or wanted to go through Moria,it jsut happened becuase the redhorn pass was blocked, and then they were fairly sure that they ahd been discovered, the woldf attack and so on. When they discovered that the easiest of all wasy was blocked, they could not turn back to Rivendell again, that'd mean defeat. They couldn't suddenly decide to go down to Gondor, they needed helpers along the way, like them in Lorien. Don't forget the redhorn pass.

Måns

Kaiserin · 08-12-2003, 07:54 PM

If you remember, it was not their initial decision to pass through Moria. After deciding not to go through the Gap of Rohan, they decided to take a path through Carhadras. They were prevented from passing through because "the mountain didn't like them". The remaining option then, would be Moria.

I'm not too familiar with details in the movie, but I think in there, Saruman (through his servants) deliberately blocked the fellowship and forced them to take Moria, thinking that Gandalf would not be willing to take it because of the presence of the Balrog (and of course, Gimli liked the idea of going into the Dwarf-mines).

Besides, in terms of plot, that bout with the Balrog was just necessary to thicken the atmosphere of despair and suspense... to later usher in a bright, dramatic hope (TTT) in the return of Gandalf as the White Wizard.

THE Ka · 08-12-2003, 08:17 PM

I perfectly agree with you Kaiserin. If they had gone through the gap of Rohan instead of moria that part of the book would of seemed "empty"... Or many good things in the latter part of the story would not happen and if they had gone that way i don't think it would be only merry and pippin residing in Isenguard.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Yet i doubt not thro' the ages one increasing purpose runs,
And the thoughts of men are widen'd with the process of the suns.
- Tennyson, Locksley Hall

Morgoth the Great · 08-12-2003, 10:16 PM

perhaps the wargs were sent by Sauron to force the fellowship into a hasty decision, as they were very afraid when they were first confronted, and realised what a peril they were in if they continued south. was it indeed a contrivance of Sauron that forced them into Moria, rather than a slightly safer way South?

Lord of Angmar · 08-12-2003, 10:51 PM

I doubt that the warg attack on the Fellowship was a direct contrivance of Sauron. I do not think he knew their exact whereabouts during this leg of their journey, or he would have come against them in greater force. Whether the wargs served him in some form is debatable, but I believe they probably did.

Back to the original question, the simple answer would be that passing the White Mountains and making for Dol Amroth would take too much time, be vastly more difficult and would end up being a major detour for their ultimate goal, the destruction of the Ring.

Måns · 08-13-2003, 01:31 AM

Well Kaiserin, I don't see what the movie has got to do with this? It's rabble of lies. Well, Caradhras is not a pass over the mountains, it is one of the highest peaks, the pass just below it is the redhorn pass which was what I was talking about. Saruman had nothing to do with blocking the Redhorn pass, neither ahd Sauron, to our knowledge. There are creatures that love nothing that walks on two legs, still they are not allies of Sauron.

On the wargs no, it was impossible for him to pin point them. But he must have had some idea where they would go, since he knew that people from Rivendell, important people, would set of before the war. There are also the flying spies, their presence in the are cannot have gone unnoticed by the local bad guys. Agree on the alst part, it was no option to go there, even for the nazgul on their swift horses the journey took a long time, a time the fellowship did not have.

Måns

07-18-2003, 10:53 PM	#1
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Why Moria? Anotehr question like my one about the morannon. Why did the fellowship decide to go through Moria after hey learned of Saruman's trechery, could they not have gone south like they intended but intstead of taking the gap of rohan, could they not have crossed over the white mountains at the west then moved east to Dol Amaroth. Taking ships from Dol Amaroth up the Anduin to Osgoliath and Minas Tirith? __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

07-18-2003, 11:05 PM	#2
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	3 problems; 1> as stated in the FotR, Boromir I believe suggested this very thing, and was countered [By Gandalf? Aragorn?] that it would take way to long. 2> to even do that still puts you closer to Isengard than any other power. 3> Clearly Gandalf sensed on sime level that the party heading out from Lothlorien was crucial, as proved to be the case. The Vial of Galadriel was crucial in getting through the only possible pass into Mordor. merry and Pippin, were essential to rousing the ents at the right time. * Aragorn and Eomer also needed to begin to forge thier alliance of mutual respect, etc... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-18-2003, 11:07 PM	#3
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	Good points, very good points, bit that is hidsight, at that time if they moved south west away from the mountains it probable would have taken less time then to go through moria or even the gap of rohan I am speaking directly of time and travel wise, tho [ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: steve ] __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

07-19-2003, 09:19 AM	#5
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	Steve, you may find some useful information in this thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=003314 __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

07-20-2003, 03:22 AM	#6
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I like the fact that Moria was presented as the most desperate of all the options, only to be used because of extreme necessity and lack of time. Much like the Paths of the Dead later in the story, except that the Fellowship is affected far more seriously by their passage through Moria. By passing through Moria, Gandalf begins the process of rebirth that will make him "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" (I'm pretty sure they stole that bit from Star Wars), Aragorn assumes a greater leadership in his transition to the throne, and the Fellowship eventually passes out and through the woods of Lothlorien. It's almost as if Lorien and Galadriel are the rewards for making such a difficult passage through the mountains. Gap of Rohan, Schmap of Schmrohan. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

08-10-2003, 06:29 AM	#7
Måns Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stockholm Posts: 63	Who stole from who? Well, anyway No one planned or wanted to go through Moria,it jsut happened becuase the redhorn pass was blocked, and then they were fairly sure that they ahd been discovered, the woldf attack and so on. When they discovered that the easiest of all wasy was blocked, they could not turn back to Rivendell again, that'd mean defeat. They couldn't suddenly decide to go down to Gondor, they needed helpers along the way, like them in Lorien. Don't forget the redhorn pass. Måns __________________ "One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a stastistic." Josef Stalin

08-12-2003, 07:54 PM	#8
Kaiserin Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cair Paravel Posts: 150	If you remember, it was not their initial decision to pass through Moria. After deciding not to go through the Gap of Rohan, they decided to take a path through Carhadras. They were prevented from passing through because "the mountain didn't like them". The remaining option then, would be Moria. I'm not too familiar with details in the movie, but I think in there, Saruman (through his servants) deliberately blocked the fellowship and forced them to take Moria, thinking that Gandalf would not be willing to take it because of the presence of the Balrog (and of course, Gimli liked the idea of going into the Dwarf-mines). Besides, in terms of plot, that bout with the Balrog was just necessary to thicken the atmosphere of despair and suspense... to later usher in a bright, dramatic hope (TTT) in the return of Gandalf as the White Wizard. __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

08-12-2003, 08:17 PM	#9
THE Ka Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: As with the flygja Posts: 1,403	I perfectly agree with you Kaiserin. If they had gone through the gap of Rohan instead of moria that part of the book would of seemed "empty"... Or many good things in the latter part of the story would not happen and if they had gone that way i don't think it would be only merry and pippin residing in Isenguard.... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Yet i doubt not thro' the ages one increasing purpose runs, And the thoughts of men are widen'd with the process of the suns. - Tennyson, Locksley Hall __________________ Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg? Hevur tú reikað líka sum eg, í endaleysu tokuni?

08-12-2003, 10:16 PM	#10
Morgoth the Great Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Thangorodrim Posts: 59	perhaps the wargs were sent by Sauron to force the fellowship into a hasty decision, as they were very afraid when they were first confronted, and realised what a peril they were in if they continued south. was it indeed a contrivance of Sauron that forced them into Moria, rather than a slightly safer way South? __________________ Walking to Rivendell: 130 miles. tiring it is too precious....

08-12-2003, 10:51 PM	#11
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I doubt that the warg attack on the Fellowship was a direct contrivance of Sauron. I do not think he knew their exact whereabouts during this leg of their journey, or he would have come against them in greater force. Whether the wargs served him in some form is debatable, but I believe they probably did. Back to the original question, the simple answer would be that passing the White Mountains and making for Dol Amroth would take too much time, be vastly more difficult and would end up being a major detour for their ultimate goal, the destruction of the Ring. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-13-2003, 01:31 AM	#12
Måns Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stockholm Posts: 63	Well Kaiserin, I don't see what the movie has got to do with this? It's rabble of lies. Well, Caradhras is not a pass over the mountains, it is one of the highest peaks, the pass just below it is the redhorn pass which was what I was talking about. Saruman had nothing to do with blocking the Redhorn pass, neither ahd Sauron, to our knowledge. There are creatures that love nothing that walks on two legs, still they are not allies of Sauron. On the wargs no, it was impossible for him to pin point them. But he must have had some idea where they would go, since he knew that people from Rivendell, important people, would set of before the war. There are also the flying spies, their presence in the are cannot have gone unnoticed by the local bad guys. Agree on the alst part, it was no option to go there, even for the nazgul on their swift horses the journey took a long time, a time the fellowship did not have. Måns __________________ "One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a stastistic." Josef Stalin