3 Elven maiden's marriages - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Earendilyon · 11-01-2001, 10:59 AM

In the other discussion on the Elvish-ness of Arwen, the 3 unions between Elf and Man were mentioned. This triggered a question in my head: why were it always the brides in such an union who were of Elven decent? Were Elven men to proud to marry a human woman, and Elven women not?

***Sharkû*** · 11-01-2001, 11:13 AM

Just a quick thought of mine for now - it may have to do with the loftiness of Elves, and their splendour compared to men. Those three mortals who married an Elf maiden all had to bring an unrealistically high bride price, and earned their wife mainly through their amazing deeds (some also earned an exception from the fate of men in that way, it has to be noticed). Would a mortal woman be able to do the same, if she had to win the love and marriage of an Elf? Note that we are still in the cosmology of Middle-Earth, and that here this very point cannot simply be answered by a 'sure, men and women are totall equal'.
Of special interest to this question is of course the tale of Aegnor and Andreth, but this have to discuss those who have read HoME 10. I believe it throws a good and realistic light on the thoughts of an Elf and a mortal woman in love.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Sharku ]

amyrlis · 11-01-2001, 01:40 PM

Great question, I wish I knew more. But I have not read any of the HoME yet.

Also, think of Finduilas' love for Turin, and Melian, the Maia, for Thingol. It always does seem to be the "higher-bred" woman loving the "lesser" man. Very interesting. Somthing I'd never noticed.

onewhitetree · 11-02-2001, 01:16 PM

My humble (ha, I know) train of thought leads me to the simple point that Tolkien was a master storyteller, and a large part of great storytelling is romance. I think this offers a fairly tight solution to the query. Classic romance equation: beautiful, sought-after woman + heroic man who is unworthy in worldly matters = true love.

Now, who in Middle Earth is more beautiful than an Elf maiden? I think that the mortal men at question can also be considered more heroic than elves, considering their greatly shortened life spans and the increased susceptibility to the Dark Side (never underestimate the power). Additionally, men are certainly "unworthy" of taking Elven spouses, when materialistic concerns are taken into consideration.

Considering the emotions J.R.R. is known to have had regarding his wife, this particular version of the equation probably was close to his heart.

Elrian · 11-03-2001, 11:51 PM

After living a few centuries they must get bored of the same old, same old! Then a Man shows up, A whole new scenario for them, He falls for her, woo's her, is expected to perform the almost impossible to gain her hand (Tuor being an exception to that I believe, achieves the goal, and they marry. Kind of exciting after several centuries of the same old thing! Just my humble opinion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Kin-strife · 11-04-2001, 09:09 AM

Plus, if it doesn't work out, he'll be dead before you know it so why not? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Earendilyon · 11-08-2001, 12:13 PM

Hehe [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

To be serious though, these three gals didn't just marry those mortal guys, but they even gave up their immortality! So, it seems to have been real love in all three cases!

My question still stands: why did never an Elven guy marry a mortal woman?

Tar Elenion · 11-08-2001, 06:28 PM

Idril did not give up her immortality when she wed Tuor. (And what Arwen actually gave up is arguable, she had the right to a Choice of 'immortality' and 'mortality', while allowed the 'youth of the Eldar' and longaevus she only made her Choice once).

Orald · 11-08-2001, 11:56 PM

As was stated in another thread with a similar topic, Aegnor, Finrod's brother and Andreth a human woman loved each other. It is in the Athrabeth in HoME 12, I think, maybe it is HoME 10.

Elrian · 11-09-2001, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar Elenion:
<STRONG>Idril did not give up her immortality when she wed Tuor. (And what Arwen actually gave up is arguable, she had the right to a Choice of 'immortality' and 'mortality', while allowed the 'youth of the Eldar' and longaevus she only made her Choice once).</STRONG>

Tuor wasn't granted immortality when he wentinto the West, who says Idril still retained hers. She may have followed him in death.
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Tar Elenion · 11-10-2001, 02:30 PM

JRRT says so. Luthien was an "absolute exception" in being allowed to divest herself of 'immortality' and become mortal.
If Idril was allowed this as well then Luthien would not be an "absolute exception".
Also, while in the mythology it is supposed and not stated that Tuor is granted 'immortality' (accounted among the Firstborn), JRRT notes that the Valar could not alter the fundamental kind of Elves and Men, Eru could and did so in the case of Tuor, just as he did for Luthien.
I would suggest reading Letter 153 to see JRRT's own veiws, as author not narrative translater, on the subject.

11-01-2001, 10:59 AM	#1
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	3 Elven maiden's marriages In the other discussion on the Elvish-ness of Arwen, the 3 unions between Elf and Man were mentioned. This triggered a question in my head: why were it always the brides in such an union who were of Elven decent? Were Elven men to proud to marry a human woman, and Elven women not? __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

11-01-2001, 01:40 PM	#3
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	Great question, I wish I knew more. But I have not read any of the HoME yet. Also, think of Finduilas' love for Turin, and Melian, the Maia, for Thingol. It always does seem to be the "higher-bred" woman loving the "lesser" man. Very interesting. Somthing I'd never noticed. __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

11-02-2001, 01:16 PM	#4
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	My humble (ha, I know) train of thought leads me to the simple point that Tolkien was a master storyteller, and a large part of great storytelling is romance. I think this offers a fairly tight solution to the query. Classic romance equation: beautiful, sought-after woman + heroic man who is unworthy in worldly matters = true love. Now, who in Middle Earth is more beautiful than an Elf maiden? I think that the mortal men at question can also be considered more heroic than elves, considering their greatly shortened life spans and the increased susceptibility to the Dark Side (never underestimate the power). Additionally, men are certainly "unworthy" of taking Elven spouses, when materialistic concerns are taken into consideration. Considering the emotions J.R.R. is known to have had regarding his wife, this particular version of the equation probably was close to his heart. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-03-2001, 11:51 PM	#5
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	After living a few centuries they must get bored of the same old, same old! Then a Man shows up, A whole new scenario for them, He falls for her, woo's her, is expected to perform the almost impossible to gain her hand (Tuor being an exception to that I believe, achieves the goal, and they marry. Kind of exciting after several centuries of the same old thing! Just my humble opinion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

11-04-2001, 09:09 AM	#6
Kin-strife Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 58	Plus, if it doesn't work out, he'll be dead before you know it so why not? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "Come away, O human child!/ To the waters and the wild/With a faery hand in hand,/ For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand."

11-01-2001, 11:13 AM	#2
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Just a quick thought of mine for now - it may have to do with the loftiness of Elves, and their splendour compared to men. Those three mortals who married an Elf maiden all had to bring an unrealistically high bride price, and earned their wife mainly through their amazing deeds (some also earned an exception from the fate of men in that way, it has to be noticed). Would a mortal woman be able to do the same, if she had to win the love and marriage of an Elf? Note that we are still in the cosmology of Middle-Earth, and that here this very point cannot simply be answered by a 'sure, men and women are totall equal'. Of special interest to this question is of course the tale of Aegnor and Andreth, but this have to discuss those who have read HoME 10. I believe it throws a good and realistic light on the thoughts of an Elf and a mortal woman in love. [ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Sharku ]

11-08-2001, 12:13 PM	#7
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	Hehe [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] To be serious though, these three gals didn't just marry those mortal guys, but they even gave up their immortality! So, it seems to have been real love in all three cases! My question still stands: why did never an Elven guy marry a mortal woman? __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

11-08-2001, 06:28 PM	#8
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	Idril did not give up her immortality when she wed Tuor. (And what Arwen actually gave up is arguable, she had the right to a Choice of 'immortality' and 'mortality', while allowed the 'youth of the Eldar' and longaevus she only made her Choice once). __________________ Tar-Elenion

11-08-2001, 11:56 PM	#9
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	As was stated in another thread with a similar topic, Aegnor, Finrod's brother and Andreth a human woman loved each other. It is in the Athrabeth in HoME 12, I think, maybe it is HoME 10.

11-10-2001, 02:30 PM	#11
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	JRRT says so. Luthien was an "absolute exception" in being allowed to divest herself of 'immortality' and become mortal. If Idril was allowed this as well then Luthien would not be an "absolute exception". Also, while in the mythology it is supposed and not stated that Tuor is granted 'immortality' (accounted among the Firstborn), JRRT notes that the Valar could not alter the fundamental kind of Elves and Men, Eru could and did so in the case of Tuor, just as he did for Luthien. I would suggest reading Letter 153 to see JRRT's own veiws, as author not narrative translater, on the subject. __________________ Tar-Elenion