Thranduil and the Mirkwood elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sillabub · 07-13-2003, 08:14 PM

Are the Mirkwood elves sindar? Cause It seemed as if they were something like the Morequendi when I was researching, or at least Silvan elves. But Doriathan elves?! It's almost impossible to imagine. I mean, wasn't Elrond a descendant of the sindar? And Galadriel's pure silvan elf, and she looks like the elves from Mirkwood do, and the sindar look different from the silvans. I know FOR SURE that Galadriel and all the lorien elves are silvan. So all the silvan elves should have similar appearance, right? This doesn't make any sense.

Finwe · 07-13-2003, 08:43 PM

Actually, Galadriel is most definitely NOT a Silvan Elf. She is 1/4 Noldo, 1/4 Vanya, and 1/2 Teler. Her father was Finarfin, the third son of Finwë, the first High King of the Noldor in Aman (the Blessed Isles). Her mother was Earwen, the daughter of King Olwë of the Teleri, another race of the Calaquendi, the Elves who reached Aman. Her Vanyarin blood comes from her grandmother Indis (of the Vanyar) who was Finarfin's mother. She is the cousin of Fingon, Turgon, and Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, and the "aunt" of Gil-galad and Idril Celebrindal. In that same sense, she was the many times great-grandaunt of the Kings of Numenor and great-grandaunt and mother-in-law of Elrond, who married her daughter Celebrian.

The Silvan Elves did not all look alike. By the time of the Third Age, when most of the Chronicles were written, most of the Elves in Middle-earth had "mixed" blood. No one belonged to just one race, so they had physical traits from all over the place. Most of the Sindar in Middle-earth were the rulers of the Silvan Kingdoms, and intermarried with the Silvan Elves. All of the Silvan Elves just couldn't look alike because many of them had Sindarin and Noldorin ancestors.

The reason that the Elves from Mirkwood and Lothlorien look alike is that they are both "mixtures" of Sindarin and Silvan blood. And what is it that is so unbelievable about Doriathrin Elves? You might need to explain yourself a little better.

Elrond is indeed descended from the Sindar. You have to remember, that the Sindar were almost like a nation of people, not really a race. Most of them were related to the Teleri, since they originally came from the same group, they were just split up and "evolved" differently. The King of the Sindar in Beleriand was King Thingol of Doriath, and I assume they were given the name Sindar "Grey-elves" or "Grey-people" because they were the followers of King Thingol, who had silver hair, and most of them had silver-ish hair (key word, most).

Another thing to remember is that Moriquendi, or Dark Elves, is a term used to classify those Elves who did not go to Aman in the Great Journey. The Sindar and the Nandor are both in this category. The only Sinda who qualifies as a member of the Calaquendi is Thingol, because he was one of the three ambassadors to Aman, and so, had indeed been there. The Moriquendi are not Dark in the sense of coloring, they are considered dark because they did not see the light of Aman.

Sillabub · 07-13-2003, 08:55 PM

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Sorry again! It gets confusing...And Galadriel's not silvan?! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] this is so tragic! (yeah right) Ugh, now I have to re-figure everything out. Still, does anyone know much about the mirkwood elves?

Finwe · 07-13-2003, 09:05 PM

What I mentioned above was pretty much most of what we know about the Mirkwood Elves. Sorry to say, but Tolkien didn't intend for his work to be made into fan-fictions and the like, so he didn't describe everything in fulsome detail.

A book that I highly recommend is the Silmarillion. It will probably take care of some of the little oversights that you sometimes have.

Remember, I'm not flaming you, I'm simply reminding you that some of your oversights are, what shall we say, a wee bit flamboyant and can be easily mended by reading the above-mentioned book.

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-14-2003, 12:40 PM

What I have read is that Oropher and his son Thranduil are both Sindar but they are Kings of Silvans. I am not too solid in my facts but I believe that Oropher came from Aman but he never saw the trees because they were killed off before he came there in the first place. Anyway...back to what I know for sure...kind of. I guess that Oropher lived in the woods the Silvans and became their King even if he was a Sindar. Sindar is the tougue used in Thranduil's house but not be all his people. Thranduil became king when Oropher was killed at the last alliance. I have also read that Sindar that dwell with Silvans identify themselves with the Silvans rather than the Sindar for reasons unknown. As for Legolas he is for sure of Sindar desent but since his mother is unknown we do not know whether if he is truely Silvan or not even if he identifies with them. Ok I am done. Sorry if any of the facts are messed up. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Legolas · 07-14-2003, 03:30 PM

Galadriel, while only 1/4 Noldorin by blood, is considered a Noldorin elf. Elrond is of a very mixed heritage - Vanyar (Indis, Elenwe), Teleri/Sindar (Thingol), Noldor (Finwe,Anaire), Human (Beren, Tuor), and Ainur (Melian). Legolas and his father Thranduil are Sindar from Doriath (as is Celeborn). Most of the elves in Mirkwood are presumed to be Silvan folk. There would be some Nandorin blood there perhaps, and more Sindar migrated from Beleriand, mixing with the Silvan. There's an appendix to 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' in Unfinished Tales about the Sindarin princes establishing kingdoms among the Silvan - explores the possible origins of Thranduil's establishment and his ancestry (Oropher).

Quote:

And Galadriel's pure silvan elf, and she looks like the elves from Mirkwood do, and the sindar look different from the silvans.

What's this based on? The movies?

Finwe · 07-14-2003, 04:11 PM

I think it was probably based on the movies. When most of the Elves in a kingdom are blonde, then I can see how confusion results.

Keeping with what you said Legolas, about Galadriel being considered a Noldo, I think that the characteristics of a person were also used to "determine" which race they belonged to. The Vanyar were all a very happy, merry, and carefree folk. The Noldor on the other hand, were fiery, and warriors at heart. The Teleri were probably calm and patient, and also followers (like the Vanyar) and not leaders (like the Noldor).

Cúdae · 07-16-2003, 10:08 AM

Here's what I can add to the subject. All I know from Unfinished Tales is that Oropher came from Doriath with a handful of other Sindarin Elves. If my memory serves then they came to basically get out of the lifestyle of the Sindar which seemed (to me anyway) to mean they wanted out of politics and to be able to live a simple life in the woods. They ended up merging with the Silvan Elves in Mirkwood, Oropher ended up king of them, and tragically for those Sindar, they ended up back in the political ring by the late Second Age and again in the late Third Age.

Also, I think I might have read somewhere that the Elves from Mirkwood and Lorien look somewhat similar because once they did live in much closer proximity to each other (southern Mirkwood and Lothlorien aren't very far apart at all), but then Oropher's Elves moved north with new threats on the forest.

I could be very wrong in most (if not all) of this, but it's a basic understanding. I think. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Finwe · 07-16-2003, 10:35 AM

In Unfinished Tales, what it says is that Oropher lived with Celeborn and Galadriel for a while in Lothlorien. After a while, he grew tired of being ruled by them, and probably wanted to strike out on his own, so he packed up and moved north with his following, and founded Mirkwood.

Roccotari Eldandil · 07-16-2003, 01:58 PM

About the Elves of Mirkwood... I'm fairly sure that it says in UT and/or Silm that the Mirkwood Elves are Nandor (the Teleri that didn't cross the ?Misty? Mountains). They moved into Mirkwood and settled there. When Beleriand got destroyed, the Sindar came and settled there.

Legolas · 07-17-2003, 06:17 PM

About the Nandor...

Some of the Mirkwood elves are likely to be Nandorin, but certainly not all of them. As the Teleri crossed the Misty Mountains, the Nandor went south along the Anduin...some, but not a great number may have stayed in Mirkwood. You might also note that a group of Nandor were led by Lenwe's son Denethor to Doriath where they rejoined with their Telerin kin, the Sindar; thus, some of the Nandor who went to Doriath might have journeyed to Mirkwood along with the Sindar when Beleriand was ruined. A good deal of the Mirkwood elves would be Silvan - I think that by the Third Age, the Nandor that remained in Middle-earth and those that went with Denethor to Doriath would've mixed in with the Silvan and Sindar (respectively) with the "Nandor" distinction (seeming to) fade (almost completely).

[ July 18, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Osse · 07-21-2003, 05:53 AM

We must bear in mind that the names given to the 'races' of elves ragarded whether or not (or how far along they got on) they journeyed to The Blessed Realm. Physical traits were indeed similar between say one silvan and another, but not always you were an Elf depending on how far you got on the Journey. Elves are Elves, the similarities you speak of Sillabub (if you are going by in the films) were casting (not errors but something close) mistakes. (?) I do not know if attention was paid to the difference to detail when dealing with elvenkind's differences, remember the films have to appeal to all, not just to us anally retarded yet devoted tolkien fans [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

07-13-2003, 08:14 PM	#1
Sillabub Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: GONDOR!! Posts: 138	Thranduil and the Mirkwood elves? Are the Mirkwood elves sindar? Cause It seemed as if they were something like the Morequendi when I was researching, or at least Silvan elves. But Doriathan elves?! It's almost impossible to imagine. I mean, wasn't Elrond a descendant of the sindar? And Galadriel's pure silvan elf, and she looks like the elves from Mirkwood do, and the sindar look different from the silvans. I know FOR SURE that Galadriel and all the lorien elves are silvan. So all the silvan elves should have similar appearance, right? This doesn't make any sense. __________________ They were holding umbrellas. Not just any umbrellas- BLACK umbrellas. Not just ANY black umbrellas- these were...(knuckle-biting time) the BLACK UMBRELLAS OF DEATH!!!!! cue sinister music

07-13-2003, 08:43 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Actually, Galadriel is most definitely NOT a Silvan Elf. She is 1/4 Noldo, 1/4 Vanya, and 1/2 Teler. Her father was Finarfin, the third son of Finwë, the first High King of the Noldor in Aman (the Blessed Isles). Her mother was Earwen, the daughter of King Olwë of the Teleri, another race of the Calaquendi, the Elves who reached Aman. Her Vanyarin blood comes from her grandmother Indis (of the Vanyar) who was Finarfin's mother. She is the cousin of Fingon, Turgon, and Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, and the "aunt" of Gil-galad and Idril Celebrindal. In that same sense, she was the many times great-grandaunt of the Kings of Numenor and great-grandaunt and mother-in-law of Elrond, who married her daughter Celebrian. The Silvan Elves did not all look alike. By the time of the Third Age, when most of the Chronicles were written, most of the Elves in Middle-earth had "mixed" blood. No one belonged to just one race, so they had physical traits from all over the place. Most of the Sindar in Middle-earth were the rulers of the Silvan Kingdoms, and intermarried with the Silvan Elves. All of the Silvan Elves just couldn't look alike because many of them had Sindarin and Noldorin ancestors. The reason that the Elves from Mirkwood and Lothlorien look alike is that they are both "mixtures" of Sindarin and Silvan blood. And what is it that is so unbelievable about Doriathrin Elves? You might need to explain yourself a little better. Elrond is indeed descended from the Sindar. You have to remember, that the Sindar were almost like a nation of people, not really a race. Most of them were related to the Teleri, since they originally came from the same group, they were just split up and "evolved" differently. The King of the Sindar in Beleriand was King Thingol of Doriath, and I assume they were given the name Sindar "Grey-elves" or "Grey-people" because they were the followers of King Thingol, who had silver hair, and most of them had silver-ish hair (key word, most). Another thing to remember is that Moriquendi, or Dark Elves, is a term used to classify those Elves who did not go to Aman in the Great Journey. The Sindar and the Nandor are both in this category. The only Sinda who qualifies as a member of the Calaquendi is Thingol, because he was one of the three ambassadors to Aman, and so, had indeed been there. The Moriquendi are not Dark in the sense of coloring, they are considered dark because they did not see the light of Aman. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-13-2003, 08:55 PM	#3
Sillabub Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: GONDOR!! Posts: 138	[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Sorry again! It gets confusing...And Galadriel's not silvan?! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] this is so tragic! (yeah right) Ugh, now I have to re-figure everything out. Still, does anyone know much about the mirkwood elves? __________________ They were holding umbrellas. Not just any umbrellas- BLACK umbrellas. Not just ANY black umbrellas- these were...(knuckle-biting time) the BLACK UMBRELLAS OF DEATH!!!!! cue sinister music

07-13-2003, 09:05 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	What I mentioned above was pretty much most of what we know about the Mirkwood Elves. Sorry to say, but Tolkien didn't intend for his work to be made into fan-fictions and the like, so he didn't describe everything in fulsome detail. A book that I highly recommend is the Silmarillion. It will probably take care of some of the little oversights that you sometimes have. Remember, I'm not flaming you, I'm simply reminding you that some of your oversights are, what shall we say, a wee bit flamboyant and can be easily mended by reading the above-mentioned book. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-14-2003, 12:40 PM	#5
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	What I have read is that Oropher and his son Thranduil are both Sindar but they are Kings of Silvans. I am not too solid in my facts but I believe that Oropher came from Aman but he never saw the trees because they were killed off before he came there in the first place. Anyway...back to what I know for sure...kind of. I guess that Oropher lived in the woods the Silvans and became their King even if he was a Sindar. Sindar is the tougue used in Thranduil's house but not be all his people. Thranduil became king when Oropher was killed at the last alliance. I have also read that Sindar that dwell with Silvans identify themselves with the Silvans rather than the Sindar for reasons unknown. As for Legolas he is for sure of Sindar desent but since his mother is unknown we do not know whether if he is truely Silvan or not even if he identifies with them. Ok I am done. Sorry if any of the facts are messed up. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

07-14-2003, 04:11 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think it was probably based on the movies. When most of the Elves in a kingdom are blonde, then I can see how confusion results. Keeping with what you said Legolas, about Galadriel being considered a Noldo, I think that the characteristics of a person were also used to "determine" which race they belonged to. The Vanyar were all a very happy, merry, and carefree folk. The Noldor on the other hand, were fiery, and warriors at heart. The Teleri were probably calm and patient, and also followers (like the Vanyar) and not leaders (like the Noldor). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-16-2003, 10:08 AM	#8
Cúdae Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 160	Here's what I can add to the subject. All I know from Unfinished Tales is that Oropher came from Doriath with a handful of other Sindarin Elves. If my memory serves then they came to basically get out of the lifestyle of the Sindar which seemed (to me anyway) to mean they wanted out of politics and to be able to live a simple life in the woods. They ended up merging with the Silvan Elves in Mirkwood, Oropher ended up king of them, and tragically for those Sindar, they ended up back in the political ring by the late Second Age and again in the late Third Age. Also, I think I might have read somewhere that the Elves from Mirkwood and Lorien look somewhat similar because once they did live in much closer proximity to each other (southern Mirkwood and Lothlorien aren't very far apart at all), but then Oropher's Elves moved north with new threats on the forest. I could be very wrong in most (if not all) of this, but it's a basic understanding. I think. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "And if you listen very hard/ The tune will come to you at last/ When all are one and one is all/ To be a rock and not to roll." --Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"

07-16-2003, 10:35 AM	#9
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	In Unfinished Tales, what it says is that Oropher lived with Celeborn and Galadriel for a while in Lothlorien. After a while, he grew tired of being ruled by them, and probably wanted to strike out on his own, so he packed up and moved north with his following, and founded Mirkwood. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-16-2003, 01:58 PM	#10
Roccotari Eldandil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the stables of Lorien Posts: 79	About the Elves of Mirkwood... I'm fairly sure that it says in UT and/or Silm that the Mirkwood Elves are Nandor (the Teleri that didn't cross the ?Misty? Mountains). They moved into Mirkwood and settled there. When Beleriand got destroyed, the Sindar came and settled there. __________________ "Come, come!" he shouted, swinging his axe. "Since Gandalf's head is now sacred, let us find one that is right to cleave!" -Gimli, after hearing Galadriel's message to him in TTT

07-17-2003, 06:17 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	About the Nandor... Some of the Mirkwood elves are likely to be Nandorin, but certainly not all of them. As the Teleri crossed the Misty Mountains, the Nandor went south along the Anduin...some, but not a great number may have stayed in Mirkwood. You might also note that a group of Nandor were led by Lenwe's son Denethor to Doriath where they rejoined with their Telerin kin, the Sindar; thus, some of the Nandor who went to Doriath might have journeyed to Mirkwood along with the Sindar when Beleriand was ruined. A good deal of the Mirkwood elves would be Silvan - I think that by the Third Age, the Nandor that remained in Middle-earth and those that went with Denethor to Doriath would've mixed in with the Silvan and Sindar (respectively) with the "Nandor" distinction (seeming to) fade (almost completely). [ July 18, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

07-21-2003, 05:53 AM	#12
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	We must bear in mind that the names given to the 'races' of elves ragarded whether or not (or how far along they got on) they journeyed to The Blessed Realm. Physical traits were indeed similar between say one silvan and another, but not always you were an Elf depending on how far you got on the Journey. Elves are Elves, the similarities you speak of Sillabub (if you are going by in the films) were casting (not errors but something close) mistakes. (?) I do not know if attention was paid to the difference to detail when dealing with elvenkind's differences, remember the films have to appeal to all, not just to us anally retarded yet devoted tolkien fans [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'