Elves as artists - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 07-07-2003, 03:00 AM

I want to give something Tolkien wrote on the Elvish understanding/experience of time. Its quoted by Verlyn Flieger in her book A Question of Time.

"In Elvish sentiment the 'future' was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay 'ahead', as of one on a journey, "looking forward" did not implyanticipation of delight. "I look forward to seeing you again" did not mean or imply "I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/& or very likely, I am pleased". It meant simply "I expect to see you againwith the certainty of foresight(in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding'" Their position , as of latter day sentiment was of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual position ever looking backwards".

Flieger interprets -

"Tolkien's Elves, who, facing toward their past, are 'backed' into the future by those who follow. Men are 'proceeding' into the future, while Elves are 'receeding' into it."

In other words, you have to see the Elves, facing into the past, yearning for what they can no longer have, & being driven 'backwards', away from their ideal world by men, or really, by the natural forces of change in ME.
You have to distinguish between what the Elves do, at certain times, in certain situations, & what they are, in their essential nature. They may fight, guide, make weapons, lead, but what they ARE is a race of artists. Their value system is not based on facts, power or money, but on aesthetics.

Everything they do naturally is a work of art. The Tengwar are designed by Feanor as a beautiful alphabet - their writings are not ever just scribbles, they are always caligraphy. If I remember rightly, there's a dispute, in a piece Tolkien wrote called The Shibboleth of Feanor, where there's this big argument about whether a certain pronunciation, a sound change, should be allowed in their language.

They are being forced further & further away from their ideal place - the past. Its more & more difficult for them to live the way they need to. You could find an analogy in Leaf by Niggle - Niggle is the 'Elf', taking natural materials paint, made from natural pigments & oil, & canvas, again made from natural fibres, & turning them into art. Along comes the 'official', symbolic of men, & says it should have been used to fix his neighbour's leaking roof.

The Elves tendency is to take nature, & embalm it into ART. Pushed to an extreme, in the Elves ideal world, nothing would change at all. Their ideal model is the Undying Lands. The desire for the past is a desire for a 'fixed' reality. the past cannot change. Effectively, they would HAVE to freeze everything into a perfect frozen moment, a perfect picure in which they can wander, or just stand & admire. Men can be seen as active, moving forward into the future, Elves as passive, seeking to stay frozen in their idealised past.

(I tried these ideas elsewhere & got shot down. Anyone here agree with me?)

Gwaihir the Windlord · 07-07-2003, 03:09 AM

Yeah, that's about the way of things. That's why the future -- at least until the world changes -- belongs to Men, and not Elves. The past belongs to the Eldar. Once Men appeared, time began to slowly and inexorably tick down for them. The Rings of Power were an example of this. The Elven-Rings preserved time as it was, and the land of Galadriel became an unchanging 'time-capsule' the endured through ages. In the end, however, it too was swept away to the West in the face of the advancement of Men.

Shot down?? Well I don't know where you went, but obviously it was a much lower-grade and poorer-quality place than the Downs is. What you say is a nice little summary and distillation of what is indeed true about the differences between the Firstborn and Secondborn.

[ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

davem · 07-07-2003, 03:28 AM

There are none so erudite & informed as those who haunt the downs.

(It was actually on the BBC's movie board).

I think the problem for those who come to Tolkien through the movies is that they can, especially with the Elves, idealise them, see them as perfect beings, there to be admired, which I don't think Tolkien ever intended. I think he was creating a race of artists, & analysing, among other things, how art affects & drives us.

There's so much to be explored about the Elves nature, & what Tolkien was trying to say. What pleases me at the moment is that, in certain places, we're starting to do that.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 07-08-2003, 04:17 AM

The problem with those who come through the movies is that they don't have a damned clue about anything. How could they? Thank God I'd read and understood the books years before the movies appeared on the scene. You need to get a grip on the true thing; the movies alone are nothing, a simplified and much-abridged edition of one tale.

EDIT: Hmmm.

Ok, for the purposes of this thread before I go (no more time to make a big reply I'm afraid), the quote:

Quote:

The doom of Men, that even the Powers shall come to envy before the End.

This tells you a lot about Elves and their nature. They are mighty and fair on Earth, but not much further, either outwards or into the future. They didn't, however, all have blond hair.

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

davem · 07-08-2003, 07:27 AM

I also think there's another dimension. The Elves seem to experience time differently to mortals. For us past, present & future are points in time, relating possibly to our past (birth), present & future (death). But if you're immortal, then maybe 'time' is experienced differently. For them, its almost like past, present & future are less points in time as 'places', locations. They feel 'exiled' from their homeland, the past, which they idealise, turning it into an artwork, almost. They feel like refugees from the past, driven further & further from home. When they can no longer keep up their self imposed isolation, either due to the Rings, or simply to natural isolation - in Mirkwood or the Havens, they feel increasing pressure to leave - drawn on the one hand by the desire for the West, & driven on the other hand by their increasing inability to function outside their own little 'asylums'.

Finwe · 07-11-2003, 09:45 AM

They also started feeling bitter. The Elves had given their lives to keep Middle-earth safe. Many of their greatest heroes had died doing that. And now, this "upstart" race of Men would take over all of that, and not accord respect where it was most deserved. Some of them would even insult and deride the memory of the Elves. I think that is enough to make anyone bitter.

I think that the one thing that kept them back in Middle-earth is that desire to be the greatest race. In Aman, they would be on the lowest rung of the "social hierarchy." In Middle-earth, they'd be the top dogs. It almost seems like the Elves were becoming more and more human, because it is human nature to want to stay at the top.

davem · 07-12-2003, 02:33 AM

Yes, but it was their fate to be superseeded by men. I think by the end of the Third Age circumstances had come together which made it more & more difficult for them to remain in ME. And i think part of the problem was that they had isolated themselves from change. When they could no longer keep up that isolation, they had to leave.

Their role in life seems to have been changing nature into art. Increasing numbers of men drove them further & further back into their 'asylums'. I think it was their desire to remain in a superior position which led to them keeping their distance from other races. There was something of the 'racial superiority' thing going on. But of course, they WERE superior in most ways. Then again they were the losers in the end, & the 'inferior' race won out. I wonder what Tolkien's point here was? The Elves clearly were the 'master race' in ME, but in the end it was that very (sense of)superiority which led to their own failing & fading.

With the Elves, Art increasingly moves towards the Machine as they decline & have to isolate themselves in order to keep up their ideal, 'superior' lifestyle. Their own attitude/aproach to life is what in the end finishes them off, in terms of life in ME. It was the appearance of men which brought it about, but men were also being true to their own nature, & not deliberatley trying to get rid of the Elves. In the end ME wasn't big enough for both the races.

FingolfintheBold · 07-12-2003, 10:10 AM

It was best in the end that the elves of ME went over the sea. They were much more interested in keeping a dieing past alive then men were or are. Elves wouldnt at all be happy in this bustling civilization of steel and glass we have created. Im sure in the end they were much happier in Valinor than in middle-earth, though they loved it with all their hearts.

07-07-2003, 03:00 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Elves as artists I want to give something Tolkien wrote on the Elvish understanding/experience of time. Its quoted by Verlyn Flieger in her book A Question of Time. "In Elvish sentiment the 'future' was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay 'ahead', as of one on a journey, "looking forward" did not implyanticipation of delight. "I look forward to seeing you again" did not mean or imply "I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/& or very likely, I am pleased". It meant simply "I expect to see you againwith the certainty of foresight(in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding'" Their position , as of latter day sentiment was of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual position ever looking backwards". Flieger interprets - "Tolkien's Elves, who, facing toward their past, are 'backed' into the future by those who follow. Men are 'proceeding' into the future, while Elves are 'receeding' into it." In other words, you have to see the Elves, facing into the past, yearning for what they can no longer have, & being driven 'backwards', away from their ideal world by men, or really, by the natural forces of change in ME. You have to distinguish between what the Elves do, at certain times, in certain situations, & what they are, in their essential nature. They may fight, guide, make weapons, lead, but what they ARE is a race of artists. Their value system is not based on facts, power or money, but on aesthetics. Everything they do naturally is a work of art. The Tengwar are designed by Feanor as a beautiful alphabet - their writings are not ever just scribbles, they are always caligraphy. If I remember rightly, there's a dispute, in a piece Tolkien wrote called The Shibboleth of Feanor, where there's this big argument about whether a certain pronunciation, a sound change, should be allowed in their language. They are being forced further & further away from their ideal place - the past. Its more & more difficult for them to live the way they need to. You could find an analogy in Leaf by Niggle - Niggle is the 'Elf', taking natural materials paint, made from natural pigments & oil, & canvas, again made from natural fibres, & turning them into art. Along comes the 'official', symbolic of men, & says it should have been used to fix his neighbour's leaking roof. The Elves tendency is to take nature, & embalm it into ART. Pushed to an extreme, in the Elves ideal world, nothing would change at all. Their ideal model is the Undying Lands. The desire for the past is a desire for a 'fixed' reality. the past cannot change. Effectively, they would HAVE to freeze everything into a perfect frozen moment, a perfect picure in which they can wander, or just stand & admire. Men can be seen as active, moving forward into the future, Elves as passive, seeking to stay frozen in their idealised past. (I tried these ideas elsewhere & got shot down. Anyone here agree with me?) __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-07-2003, 03:28 AM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	There are none so erudite & informed as those who haunt the downs. (It was actually on the BBC's movie board). I think the problem for those who come to Tolkien through the movies is that they can, especially with the Elves, idealise them, see them as perfect beings, there to be admired, which I don't think Tolkien ever intended. I think he was creating a race of artists, & analysing, among other things, how art affects & drives us. There's so much to be explored about the Elves nature, & what Tolkien was trying to say. What pleases me at the moment is that, in certain places, we're starting to do that. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-08-2003, 07:27 AM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I also think there's another dimension. The Elves seem to experience time differently to mortals. For us past, present & future are points in time, relating possibly to our past (birth), present & future (death). But if you're immortal, then maybe 'time' is experienced differently. For them, its almost like past, present & future are less points in time as 'places', locations. They feel 'exiled' from their homeland, the past, which they idealise, turning it into an artwork, almost. They feel like refugees from the past, driven further & further from home. When they can no longer keep up their self imposed isolation, either due to the Rings, or simply to natural isolation - in Mirkwood or the Havens, they feel increasing pressure to leave - drawn on the one hand by the desire for the West, & driven on the other hand by their increasing inability to function outside their own little 'asylums'. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-11-2003, 09:45 AM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	They also started feeling bitter. The Elves had given their lives to keep Middle-earth safe. Many of their greatest heroes had died doing that. And now, this "upstart" race of Men would take over all of that, and not accord respect where it was most deserved. Some of them would even insult and deride the memory of the Elves. I think that is enough to make anyone bitter. I think that the one thing that kept them back in Middle-earth is that desire to be the greatest race. In Aman, they would be on the lowest rung of the "social hierarchy." In Middle-earth, they'd be the top dogs. It almost seems like the Elves were becoming more and more human, because it is human nature to want to stay at the top. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-12-2003, 02:33 AM	#7
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Yes, but it was their fate to be superseeded by men. I think by the end of the Third Age circumstances had come together which made it more & more difficult for them to remain in ME. And i think part of the problem was that they had isolated themselves from change. When they could no longer keep up that isolation, they had to leave. Their role in life seems to have been changing nature into art. Increasing numbers of men drove them further & further back into their 'asylums'. I think it was their desire to remain in a superior position which led to them keeping their distance from other races. There was something of the 'racial superiority' thing going on. But of course, they WERE superior in most ways. Then again they were the losers in the end, & the 'inferior' race won out. I wonder what Tolkien's point here was? The Elves clearly were the 'master race' in ME, but in the end it was that very (sense of)superiority which led to their own failing & fading. With the Elves, Art increasingly moves towards the Machine as they decline & have to isolate themselves in order to keep up their ideal, 'superior' lifestyle. Their own attitude/aproach to life is what in the end finishes them off, in terms of life in ME. It was the appearance of men which brought it about, but men were also being true to their own nature, & not deliberatley trying to get rid of the Elves. In the end ME wasn't big enough for both the races. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-07-2003, 03:09 AM	#2
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Yeah, that's about the way of things. That's why the future -- at least until the world changes -- belongs to Men, and not Elves. The past belongs to the Eldar. Once Men appeared, time began to slowly and inexorably tick down for them. The Rings of Power were an example of this. The Elven-Rings preserved time as it was, and the land of Galadriel became an unchanging 'time-capsule' the endured through ages. In the end, however, it too was swept away to the West in the face of the advancement of Men. Shot down?? Well I don't know where you went, but obviously it was a much lower-grade and poorer-quality place than the Downs is. What you say is a nice little summary and distillation of what is indeed true about the differences between the Firstborn and Secondborn. [ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

07-12-2003, 10:10 AM	#8
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	It was best in the end that the elves of ME went over the sea. They were much more interested in keeping a dieing past alive then men were or are. Elves wouldnt at all be happy in this bustling civilization of steel and glass we have created. Im sure in the end they were much happier in Valinor than in middle-earth, though they loved it with all their hearts. __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?