The Balrog of Moria

[GreyIstar]

Making an attempt to delve into the mind of a Balrog. Why wouldn't he choose to leave Moria and go to Mordor to work with Sauron since they wer eboth under Melkor? Was the Balrog simply unaware of the rise of Sauron or was he content with ruling his underground domain or somethign else? There may be no real answer just speculation.

[Mhoram]

I seem to remember reading that Sauron wanted the Balrog there to protect Moria from Dwarvin recolonization.

[GreyIstar]

That was my third option that I neglected to post, but why would Sauron fear the Dwarves repopulating Moria?

[Legolas]

It was close to Rivendell, one of his key adversaries which he'd have to face-off with if he were to take over Middle-earth. The dwarves would've been conveniently close-by to help in the fight against Sauron's armies.

[GreyIstar]

True but it is closer to Lothlorien. I understand wanting to keep a chess piece in that position, but with the One Ring Sauron would have little resistance.

[lathspell]

It's close to both Rivendell and Lothlorien, and in the UT Gandalf says that he after all knew what Sauron's original plan was: to whipe out Rivendell and Lothlorien as soon as he was ready. Therefore, that Moria was under the leadership of the Balrog, was quite good to him.
If the Dwarves would have Khazad-dum back, they would be able to help both of the Elven-colonies. After all it was Durin's folk that lived there, and they were a people to be reckoned with. It would be another opponent that would be strong and numerous, and therefore Sauron would have liked the Balrog there better.

'It doesn't do to keep a live dragon out of your calculations.'

I guess Sauron thought the same of Durin's Dwarves in that particular place.

But after all, I really doubt if Sauron knew what evil was awakened in Moria. Of course he knew that it was a place fallen into darkness and evil, but I don't think he knew what the evil was that was stirred there. Therefore I also don't think that they were in league. Sauron knew that a great distress was stirred in Moria and he was content. The Balrog had Khazad-dum with alot of Orcs, and the Orcs had their gold. He was content with that as well.
I suppose that if Sauron knew that it was a Balrog in the Dwarven-mansions, he would have sent an emissarie or gone to Moria himself to speak with his partner in the Old Wars.

greetings,
lathspell

[the real findorfin]

Hang on a minute!

1)Why would the Balrog want to leave Moria and serve UNDER Sauron? If I were him I'd much prefer to keep my underground kingdom than serve as someone's second in command.

2)Why would Sauron want another powerful Maia around. He could see the Balrog as a threat and would probably prefer it if it stayed in Moria.
The Ringwraiths are strong but against a Balrog, I think not!
If they quarrelled then Sauron would be the only one in Mordor who would stand a chance against it. I doubt that he would like those odds.

[Legolas]

but with the One Ring Sauron would have little resistance.

True, but Sauron didn't know where the Ring was exactly, or if he'd get it back before he had to send his armies to look for it. Rivendell certainly would've been a target of the search.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

My belief in the matter is that a Balrog as a mere Fire Spirit was of a much lower order of Maia than Sauron, but could act independently and probably perferred to do so.

But again, we must think in terms of Evil that is there, but not strictly at Sauron's behest. Power in any guise can often be only unleashed, not controlled.

I suspect that Sauron guessed the nature of Durin's Bane better than anyone. Doubtless, Gandalf and Galadriel were not greatly astonished that it was there.

For Gandalf to have killed it was fortuitous in the same way as the slaying of Smaug by Bard, or the diminishiment of the Orcs, Goblins & Hobgoblins of the North (recognizing those terms to be mostly redundant) in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs and the Battle of the Five Armies.

Were it not for these developments, such forces certainly would have arisen during the War of the Ring. They would not have been cleanly organized; Smaug would have probably gone where he would, but there certainly wouldn't have been any reason to send an Easterling Army that direction.

One reason why his forces at Dol Guldor were handedly countered by the Elves and Men to the North and West of Dol Guldor, was that Sauron had likely been at least betting that the Balrog would issue forth and wreak havoc on the Westside of Lothlorien. As it were Sauron's forces were too thin to be victorious. (I doubt the Balrog could have travelled to Imladris)

As it is, we don't hear much about the Orcs of the Mountains being too effective, beyond harassing the Men of the Vales of Anduin in Frodo's vision from Amon Hen, but persumably that wasn't so bad, and the Beornings and other such Men were eventually able to come to the aid of Thranduil and the Woodmen.

Also, I like to think that the Dunedain of the North, who did not ride with the Grey Company, as well as the Elves of Rivendell, were not idle, and that they went on higher alert status and thereby helped keep the Orcs & Trolls of the northwestern Wilderland under wraps.

Really, except for his outrageously massive forces in Mordor and the seige at Erebor, Sauron didn't have much going for him at that point. The Balrog, which probably did not want to really serve under Sauron directly, not to mention Smaug and much larger contingencies of Orcs in the North, could have tipped those scales decisively.

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Sharkû]

"They delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane. Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all, and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it." (LR II v)

We can assume they gave him the knowledge of the awakened Balrog as well; Sauron very probably therefore.

On the topic of the Balrog being actually sent by Sauron, see HoME VII:

"'No Balrog has lain hid in the Misty Mountains since the fall of Thangorodrim,' said Galadriel. 'If truly one was there, as is told, then it is come from Orodruin, the ountain of Fire, and was sent by the Lord whom we do not name in this land.'
In FR, of course, the view expressed here by Keleborn or Galadriel that the Balrog, sent from Mordor, had entered Moria not long since ('it is come from Orodruin') has no place. In LR the Balrog of Moria came from Thangorodrim at the end of the First Age, and 'had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West' (see pp. 142 - 3)."

This idea was thus abandoned early.

It is indeed that the case that Dúrin's Bane would owe Sauron no allegiance, even though they were clearly inferior in spirit -- "Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs [read: even Orcs] can rebel against him without losing their own irremedable allegiance to evil (Morgoth)." (MT VIII)

The rest seems to have to remain speculation.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Plus, there would be nowhere else in the particular where Sauron needed a Balrog, therefore why not leave it where it is.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Excellent, I think that puts the matter to rest. Schoene Forschung, Sharku. Seeing also as LotR App II indicates how Sauron populated Moria with his peoples, it seems not too great a stretch to think that Sauron and this last compatriot of Gothmog's had some sort of understanding. We might also wonder in this context about how Frodo was singled out by both the Kraken and the Great Spear-throwing Orc.

Still, I also get a sense in LotR II that (in agreement with the Film) the fact that it was a Balrog was not unsuspected among the Wise. However, seeing as they were confident in challenging Sauron at Dol Guldor, it is not too hard to imagine that concerted effort by the Istari, Glorifindal and such could've effectively attempted to exterminate Durin's Bane, if its identity was known with greater certainty, and it had become an active threat earlier, before Sauron's plans had fully ripened.

A dragon such as Smaug, however, required a hero in the mode of Turin or Fram.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I know the topic is finito, but I just felt it necessary to add that Sauron lived in Dol Goldur until very recently, and it wasn't Gandalf who had awakened the Balrog but the dwarves that went there after the battle of five armies. Since Sauron was chased out before that battle, and the Balrog was asleep, the flight of the necromancer may have been connected.

Also, like someone said before, the Balrog had no alleigiance to Sauron. They were of equal rank, Balrog's were Morgoth's warriors, Sauron was his spy and the most cunning of his workers. Sauron may have been number two, but only in acting as the brains. The Balrogs had all the physical strength.

Nice topic, by the way. Though it has most definitly been discussed long ago, before the flooding of the site. Check out the archives, the good stuff is in them, as far back as two years ago, when I joined up.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Connected to what I couldn't find the point. Sauron feinted away from Dol Guldor at the time of "The Hobbit," the Balrog's presence had been felt by Dain at the Battle of the Gates of Moria roughly a hundred years earlier.

Balin and Co. did not try to recolonize Moria for many years after the Battle of Five Armies, and Sauron's setting up shop at Barad-dur.

It's hard to say how the Balrog reacted to there presence, whether he was asleep and took no notice, or if he waited until there were more orcs again to help chase out the Dwarves. Seemingly, the Orcs were not too plentiful in Moria when Balin entered, which is reasonable, and even when the Fellowship passed through I doubt it was anything like the multitude depicted in the Film.

So, perhaps more goblins appeared from the far deeps or were let in through secred ways known to them, with the Balrog's assistance, or perhaps at Sauron's behest, too. Nevertheless, they reappeared in numbers that the Dwarves could not fight off in association with the Balrog, which seems to have chased out the Dwarves orignally not through confrontation as the master of Orc bands, but by being a nameless terror in the Mines over many years. He probably didn't want to repeat that tedious exercise.

In any case, it seems best to see the Balrog not as servant of Sauron, but as a Free Agent with common interests, who in all likelihood would have exploited the War of the Rings.

Finally, with the exception of Gothmog, I think Sauron clearly outranked the other Balrogs. They were Fire Spirits, not the type of high-ranking Maia like Osse, Eonwe, Melian, Olorin or Gorthaur the Cruel who was Morgoth's greatest servant and mighty in the lore of Aule, to paraphrase the Silm.

[obloquy]

Also, like someone said before, the Balrog had no alleigiance to Sauron.

Baseless. The Balrog was probably quite familiar with taking orders from Sauron. Depending on his personal degree of loyalty to the chain of command, it's quite possible that Durin's Bane would have viewed Sauron as the rightful heir to Morgoth's throne. That doesn't mean I think Durin's Bane was under orders from Sauron. It's also possible that he only showed up because he felt Sauron's presence in the Ring.

They were of equal rank, Balrog's were Morgoth's warriors, Sauron was his spy and the most cunning of his workers. Sauron may have been number two, but only in acting as the brains. The Balrogs had all the physical strength.

Again, baseless. All indications are that Sauron was second-in-command. Where did you read that Sauron was the spy and the Balrogs were the brutes?

Finally, with the exception of Gothmog, I think Sauron clearly outranked the other Balrogs.

No, not with the exception of Gothmog. Sauron not only outranked the Balrogs, he was a mightier spirit in his beginning.

[-Imrahil-]

I belive Sauron felt the same way towards Shelob as the Balrog of Moria. He was happy to let Shelob guard the pass, the same goes for the Balrog guarding Moria.

Although I do agree with the people who think the Balrog took orders from Suaron. Now that I think about it Shelob was slightly different, because she did not follow anyone's orders, she wasn't really allied to any side. She wanted victims only.

[the witch king]

i think that sauron had no power over the balrog of moria for starters his power had diminished since he lost the ring in the 2nd age also i think if he had of had power over it he would have used it 2 greater effect than scareing dwarves! i'd also like 2 say i dont think there was a lot in it between sauron and gothmog they where both v powerful servants of morgoth and in battle gothmog was a much more acoplished fighter