Feanor - Overrated?

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think my oppinion may be kinda biased becuase I *like* Feanor.

Don't worry about it, purplefluffychainsaw! (Great name, by the way!) I wouldn't talk about Fëanor so much if I didn't like him! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The ironic thing about Fëanor is that the same character traits that make him great and spur him to create great works also give rise to this inherent instability and his "flaws." I suppose if one is to create the ultimate in Elves, one must be ready to pay the price for it! I'm sure Fëanor took over once Tolkien allowed him to develop in his thoughts. A Mary Sue from Hell, perhaps! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Perhaps it was (I haven't checked this, just an odd thought) a study, much as it was his study of a hobbit broken down completely that gave rise to Frodo. Perhaps he created Fëanor as a study of the perfect elf with respect to external works, a sort of prototype of pure Noldorin type, if you get my meaning.

Cheers,
Lyta

New to the board. This is a great discussion! I consider the fire of Feanor to be a virtue only because of what the Silmarils represented. If it was a beautifully wrought sword that caused this vow and arrogance I would think otherwise. However, this was the light of Valar that could never, we presume, be reproduced. In this way, I believe, Tolkien partially justifies Feanor's misdeeds. Yes there was arrogance and pride etc., but it was the pursuit of something of his that brought his people closer to God or whatever description you give to the Theology of middle earth. I almost thought of Feanor's quest as a crusade and not just a misguided obsession with his own art.

Now obviously there were transgressions, i.e. the ships at Losgar but maybe there is some applicability in that as well with regard to fanatical behavior in the name of God. Thoughts?

[Morgoth the Great]

put bluntly, id have to say i disagree completely. he was an elf worthy of the highest recognition

[Lyta_Underhill]

Welcome to the Downs, Legolas Greenleaf and Morgoth the Great! I must say I'm more on Morgoth's side here! (How did THAT sound? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] )

Anyway, to your argument, Legolas:

I consider the fire of Feanor to be a virtue only because of what the Silmarils represented. If it was a beautifully wrought sword that caused this vow and arrogance I would think otherwise.

I believe you are narrowing the focus on the evil that came of Fëanor's actions, rather than on the fire within his soul which produced not only the Silmarils, but the Palantiri, the Fëanorian system of writing, and much more! He was, in a word, unequalled, in every way. The Silmarils were not only significant for their being the last of the Light of the Two Trees, but also they were part of Fëanor himself, as were all his creations. He erred in being possessive of them, but his creative fire is admirable in every way, and is in no way equal to the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Everything he did was born of fire, but this later misdeed was the fire twisted by Morgoth, not the true spirit and fire of Fëanor. He was marred; the Kinslaying was a rash and firy misdeed, but not what I would remember Fëanor for, for he was no longer himself, although true to his firy nature, if that makes sense.

He was the greatest of the Noldor, and to be the greatest, there must be an encompassing fire, not just a drive for a thing. The drive to regain the Silmarils consumed the rest of Fëanor's life, but it is folly to limit the view of his life to that unhappy occurence to the exclusion of his other great works. There is not an Age of the World til the end of the War of the Ring (that we know of...) that does not feel the touch of Fëanor and his works. That is the mark of a great elf! OK, rant over! Now back to your regularly scheduled madness! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta (teller of the alternate tale of Fëanor, the Exploding Elf, the unauthorized Quenta Silmarillion, unexpurgated and unbearable...)

[Morgoth the Great]

thats it, come to me, little followers. lol. i think that Feanor is a very powerfull elf though, and worthy of all the recognition he gets

Woops. I believe I was misunderstood. I didn't mean to limit Feanor's greatness. I was writing in defense of Feanor, offering an explanation of why he did what he did. Surely there needs to be a rationalization for some of the pain and suffering he brought to his people. I thought one of those rationales could be that of a religious nature. As far as his art and craft and skill, I completely agree.

Gee whiz. I'm on the board two days and I'm already causing trouble! And it wasn't even intentional!

p.s. I've seen a couple of posters say that they hadn't read Tokien's letters. That is an absolute must read. Funny and informative. Makes you think about the lost art of writing. His letters to his fans and to his publisher are more well writen than most of today's fiction.

And Lyta, nice post. But in refernce to my quote, when I wrote "only because of. . ." I meant that even if this were his only deed, he would be virtuous. I didn't mean to say that it was his only accomplishment.

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas Greenleaf ]

[Finwe]

I agree wholeheartedly with Lyta.

Some people may call it denying the truth, but I would like to remember Fëanor as the greatest Elf of all time, not as the misguided mass murderer of poor Teleri. He wasn't the instigator, Morgoth was. All that Fëanor did was actually let some of his lies sink in, without realizing it. I think that Morgoth played his cards well, knowing all of Fëanor's weaknesses. I don't blame Fëanor for some of his actions, because being an eldest child myself, with a lot of pressure to be perfect, I understand how he felt about his younger brothers. True, some of his actions were uncalled-for, but do the good deeds make the man or to the bad deeds make the man? In our culture, you are more remembered if you were notorious (people are definitely going to remember Hitler longer than Mother Teresa), but we have to remember those people who did do some good in their lives, and Fëanor was one of them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Some people may call it denying the truth, but I would like to remember Fëanor as the greatest Elf of all time, not as the misguided mass murderer of poor Teleri. He wasn't the instigator, Morgoth was. All that Fëanor did was actually let some of his lies sink in, without realizing it.

I am more than willing to give Feanor full credit for his many great (and in the case of the Silmarils, unsurpassed) accompishments, but he must also take the lion's share of the responsibility for the terrible deeds which he also committed. He cannot be absolved of blame simply by reference to the influence of Morgoth. Those who, whether by fear or through lies and deceit, are influenced by another to commit attrocities must nevertheless accept responsibility for their own actions.

Greatest of the Noldor he may have been, but he was also deeply flawed.

[Lyta_Underhill]

He cannot be absolved of blame simply by reference to the influence of Morgoth. Those who, whether by fear or through lies and deceit, are influenced by another to commit attrocities must nevertheless accept responsibility for their own actions.

And pay he would...I would never seek to absolve Fëanor for his misdeeds for which he was unrepentant. I simply choose to remember the bright, shining Fëanor, before his marring by Morgoth, before his terrible deeds. He is the burning lamp that one should not delve too deeply into, lest one is burned oneself. I would not seek to take Fëanor's later deeds as an example or lesson in greatness, but his former ones, his great artistic achievements.

The arguments for and against the advisability of the return on the part of the Elves to Middle Earth notwithstanding, the final decision should never have been forced to its terrible conclusion at Alqualondë. I still say Fëanor was a powerful force for the fulfillment of the Will of Eru in Arda, but, then again, so was Morgoth. There is nothing you can create, work or destroy that does not have its uttermost source in Eru and his design; and I hold to my belief that a great deal of that energy was focused in Fëanor, for good AND ill. But yes, Saucepan Man, I agree that he must be held responsible for all his deeds, great and terrible.

The ones I feel for most in this matter are Fëanor's sons, mainly Maedhros and Maglor, for they perceived the futility of the Oath they had taken, and yet they were constrained to fulfill it to their own ruin. Makes me sad... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

Lyta. That is great and I loved reading it. If you agree Feanor's art was inspired by Iluvatar then do you also agree that his pursuit of the Silamrils, however misguided, was also inspired by Eru.

Also, you have a good point in that Feanor's subsequent deeds do not lessen his craft. Similar to the works of Wagner. He was an anti-semite but the beauty of his music was clear perhaps even inspired by God. But I would say that his character was lacking.

Would you say that for all the gifts that Feanor possessed, he was flawed ethically?

[Finwe]

I agree that Fëanor has to take the blame for his misdeeds, but I still believe that instead of deserving our hatred, he rather deserves our pity.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Thanks for the great points, Legolas Greenleaf, Saucepan Man, Finwë and all who wander in here with opinions of Fëanor! I am enjoying it quite a lot!

Would you say that for all the gifts that Feanor possessed, he was flawed ethically?

Fëanor is flawed, that much is certain, and his code of ethics is marred by Morgoth's playing on his weaknesses, causing him to act on many things he only held as vague fears, shadows or inklings before: a nascent greed and fear of being overshadowed, a gigantic ego. These traits were present already in Fëanor, but after Morgoth singled him out for special treatment, they were greatly exaggerated. I wonder at what part Morgoth had in the possessiveness he showed for the Silmarils, and whether his enmity for his half brothers would have been so great as to cause him to draw sword on Fingolfin as he did...it is clear that Fëanor was unstable and needed only a slight push to create havoc. But such is the fate of one with a fire in his soul, alas! Perhaps it is like handling plutonium, very unstable, very likely to result, yet again, in the Exploding Elf! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Another little point: Morgoth had been at work on the whole of the Noldor against the Valar for a long time. I wonder, if Finwë's murder and the theft of the Silmarils had not been the touchstone, what indeed would have been, for there would have been something eventually. The seed was well sown there! (Sorry, I know that is not directly related to whether or not Fëanor is overrated; on that particular question, the easy answer for me is NO!) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

P.S. And Legolas, that parallel to Wagner was quite apt! Beautiful works, and a really messed up code of ethics, worldview, etc (and the greater misfortune to have those views latched onto by a psychopath in a position of power)! Great and terrible...but never boring!

You know whats so funny.... I had a discussion with a friend of mine that told me straight up that Feanor was not a legend ( as I so faithfully called him ) but infamous...and the main reason being was the kinslaying. My response to him was that no matter how you put it, the kinslaying was wrong and yes it was also a selfish act of evil on Feanor's part. he didnt have to kill the Teleri. but he did it in his mad desperation to follow Morgoth to middle earth. In the history of the United States especially in the west during the period of the 18th century. most of the gunfighters of that era ( billy the kid, jesse james etc ) were notorious and Infamous but still legends in the making of that part of history with deeds that some have equally loved and hated.

My point is ( in terms of whatever it is you want to classify Feanor as )what he became will not take away from the fact of Tokien written about him throughout the Silmarillion. The Mightiest of the Noldor and the perfect of the Elvin Race in all parts of body, mind, valour, skill, wisdom etc, etc.

The cruel irony to all of it was that he didnt show all of the qualities that Illuvatar had blessed him with and could the possiblity of all the Feanor was be that this was also a part of the overall plan of Illuvatar's doing? what I mean by that was that Illuvatar himself have stated to the Valar that no matter what evil deeds Melkor does, even his acts will only serve to the eventual glorification of Illuvatar power and dominion in Arda. the same could be said for all of Illuvatar's children and that includes Feanor.

I did agree with my friend though in saying that Feanor was Infamous....he only became Infamous when he started to speak openly against the Valar. he didnt speak in terms of taking over the Undying lands for himself or even destroying the two trees for that matter, he only spoke on not being confined to the Undying lands like a bird caught in a cage. and remember. throughout the Silmarillion, Feanor was adventuroues and loved to roam the wide plans of Eldarmar all the way to the open seas of the void. he was never one to stay in one place anyway.
regardless of the fact that Morgoth poisoned his mind with lies about his brothers and the Valar. in fact, all of the Noldor became proud and willful due to the words of Morgoth, so if Feanor was infamous on those ground, then the entire Noldor race was infamous. including those elves within the house of Finarfin and Fingolfin.

what the hell ?..... Fingon and Turgon was said to be bold and fiery at heart. and they both was eager to be gone from Valinor. Feanor never planted the idea of wantitng to leave in their head. they already had the desire in their heart. It too the greatest of the Noldor to say the things that most of the Noldor was too afraid to say. What makes Feanor legendary in my eyes was the fact that despite the Valar wanting the elves to dwell with them in Valinor to "protect" them from the wiles of Morgoth, Feanor probably knew that (even though he too was duty bound to obey the powers in their own land ) the Valar didnt create him or his race and therefore are not objects to be worshiped as maybe some of the elves did without even realizing that they are the first children of Illuvatar....

and none BUT the creator ( Eru/ Illuvatar ) should have the right to command them so in where they should go and where should they live. Illuvatar instructed the Valar that Elves and Men is to inhabit Middle earth and dwell therin. if you bring a race (Noldor ) from the place where they was created to dwell by their creator (Middle-Earth). and the reason you give was to protect them from the evil of their kindred ( Melkor ). then you dont secure them when one of them (Finwe) was brutally killed nor capture the one who cause it. You basically negated the reason for them even being in Valinor in the first place.

Feanor knew that the moment he found out that Morgoth killed his father and the days afterwards, realized that the Valar have done nothing to even ENSURE the Noldor that Justice will be done by their hands.

Feanor probably thought "sh** ! you ve done it before when you went to war with Melkor over us cause he was taking those of our race and turning them into Orks. whats the difference now ? you should have an even bigger reason because that wasnt even like probably a month after Him and Ungoliant destroyed the two trees."

Feanor was fearless in his thinking and his actions to want to destroy that which took away his greatest love, his father In my humble opinion, he simply snapped. and his deeds to the Teleri has tarnished his Legend and made him as my friend said...infamous...but the fact remain that it was due to his bold stance as a Elf who dared to challege the might of the Valar (who is the most evil and despised even in the eyesight of Illuvatar ) in a war he could not truly win but to show to all including that of the Valar, that Illuvatar has made his greatest creation when he created the Elves and the race of the Noldor in particular. thats what makes him Legendary in my eyes. and I will always think of him like that.

we as humans do works of good as well as works to harm our very soul at times. but our overall character and whats in our souls is what makes us the good and god fearing beings that we are. Feanor's life was basically set up to work wonders of the glorification and beauty of Arda. he was as Illuvatar created him to be. It was unfortunate that the deeds he did towards the end created the type of imagine will tarnish and shame his memory all the days of the world....but his words to the Valar and the Noldor came to pass...that they will be the most dominant race on Middle Earth. and to prove my point in conclusion, was the fact that during the big feast that Fingolfin prepare to bring together all the elves. and it was a glorious gather where good councils were held as well as forming strong alliances. the vibe and the feelings of togetherness were so high and amongs themselves during the feast....

They said that the words of Mighty and fell Feanor on leaving Valinor to created and build new kingdoms in middle earth in which the Noldor will thrive and prosper was correct and the hardships they've endure ( which includes the kinslaying and the journey through the grinding ice ) was beinning to be WORTH it. Now this was said way after the demise of the Mightiest and greatest of all the Noldor...you tell me...who should be called infamous and selfish now. and most of us who read the Silmarillon loves the characters of Turgon, Fingon, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Finrod and others. they was all at this feast which makes me realize that the best our intentions to do good can go horribly wrong at a moments notice causing us to do evil in the sight of Illuvatar. Feanor was no different and him and his house suffered the most for it, but Feanor himself ( without even realizing it ) have set in motion the eventual and heroic deeds that made most of his family within the house Finwe great in Illuvatar eyes. that is exactly why the Spirit of Fire will always be a legend to me....

no matter how "Infamous" he was.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

so in answer to question was Feanor..overratted....absolutely not..in alllll areas of the spectrum
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ August 29, 2003: Message edited by: jedi ]

[the phantom]

and none BUT the creator ( Eru/ Illuvatar ) should have the right to command them so in where they should go and where should they live. Illuvatar instructed the Valar that Elves and Men is to inhabit Middle earth and dwell therin. if you bring a race (Noldor ) from the place where they was created to dwell by their creator (Middle-Earth). and the reason you give was to protect them from the evil of their kindred ( Melkor ). then you dont secure them when one of them (Finwe) was brutally killed nor capture the one who cause it. You basically negated the reason for them even being in Valinor in the first place.

Jedi shoots... he scores!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

he didnt have to kill the Teleri. but he did it in his mad desperation to follow Morgoth to middle earth

Actually, I think he might've had to. Read the thread below to find out why I have this radical belief. Even if you don't agree, it's a great thread from beginning to end. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...=1&t=003412&p=

(and welcome to the Downs, Jedi, you'll fit in fine)

thanks Phantom....

being in a place like this..feels like I've finally came home [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Blessed Valar, Jedi! That's all I can say to that magnificent post!

I think what people don't realize is that with great power also comes a great capability to "fall." When you get someone so extraordinarily gifted as Fëanor, it is doubly grievous when they fall. I'm sure that Fingon instigating the Kinslaying or Finrod instigating the Kinslaying wouldn't have garnered that much of a reaction. The reason that the reaction was that big was that it was Fëanor who did it, the seemingly epitome of perfection among the Elves. It can be compared to the stereotypical brilliant student at all of our schools, the perfectionist who always gets A's, suddenly failing a final exam, or something like that. It is even more shocking because such a "perfect" person fell. The same thing can apply with Fëanor.