[Treebeard/Tom Bombadil] Fangorn/Treebeard= Oldest? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lutfiska · 03-23-2003, 12:32 PM

Hello everybody!

I´m just wondering if Fangorn is the oldest living being in ME? And if so isn´t the case, then who is?

thx for any replys

[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

HCIsland · 03-23-2003, 12:39 PM

He's an Ent.

I may be wrong, but I always figured the Ents were awoken shortly after the Elves. Certainly not before. I believe Cirdan of Grey Havens may still be an elf from this period, so may be even older than Treebeard.

Who is the oldest? I think that's up for debate, but I would put my money on Tom Bombadil. Then again, that would all depend on exactly what you thought Tom was as well.

H.C.

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

Beren87 · 03-23-2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

I may be wrong, but I always figured the Ents were awoken shortly after the Elves

I always assumed they awoke at the same time as the Dwarves, as they are Yavanna's protector's of the trees. They were created diretly because of Aule making the Dwarves, so it would make sense that they would awake at the same moment.

dragoneyes · 03-23-2003, 12:47 PM

Is not Tom Bombadil 'the oldest and the fatherless' making him the oldest, whatever you think he is.

Beren87 · 03-23-2003, 12:54 PM

But Tom's not really a creature of ME, he's a Maiar (or so we think). And I can see this topic is going to be shut down becuase there are a thousand other topics about who the older person in ME is.

Lutfiska · 03-23-2003, 12:54 PM

But I think Fangorn says something like: "I am the oldest" (my book is stolen :s so i cant check it right now)... Do you know anything about this?

Yavanna · 03-23-2003, 01:01 PM

I would say Fangorn was the oldest living thing, because Manwë said that when the Children awoke, so would the Ents. Although so far in the Silmarillion, it hasn't mentioned anything about Tom Bombadil.

Lindril Arvilya · 03-23-2003, 01:02 PM

I don't have a book around either, but perhaps he meant of creatures he'd met. I'm just guessing, and probably wrong, though.

tangerine · 03-23-2003, 01:13 PM

I would be inclined to say that they are the oldest living beings, since they were made just after the dwarves were fashioned, which is before the Elves came. Yarvanna made them to protect the trees, and Treebeard gives reference in LOTR as to being the oldest of his race. The only one older might be Tom Bombadil, and I'm not sure if he counts.

HCIsland · 03-23-2003, 01:20 PM

The way a read it is that the dwarves were made, but then put to sleep and only awoken after the elves, who've been asleep much longer than that. I think it's debatable as to which is older (and I'm sure it's been debated to death anyway [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

H.c.

steve · 03-23-2003, 09:31 PM

correct me if i am wrong, but wernt ents origionally trees that were awoken? because they turn back into trees after a wile or so the oldest ents other then treebeard did. so technichly wouldnt that make him be the oldest because there were trees when the elves were awoken, were there not?

Beren87 · 03-23-2003, 09:33 PM

It's confusing, as there seem to be two theories. That that the first ents "awoke" much as the elves did, being created by Mawnë or Eru. And then there is the explanation that they were awakened by the elves, which seems to fit what Treebeard says, but not what is implied in the Silm.

Chancellen the True · 03-23-2003, 09:44 PM

The dwarves were alive before they were put asleep. "and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy." page 41, The Silmarillion. If you are going to allow Tom Bombadil, then he would have to be the oldest. He says that he was there before the trees and the first raindrop. That last part is a pretty serious statement. I take it to mean that he was there before Manwe and Ulmo got together to invent rain. That's old. He also says that he was there before the dark one came from the outside (paraphrase). This statement does not make clear weather he means before Melkor came the first time or after his three age imprisiment, but that is a discussion for another thread. Thanks.

Iarwain · 03-23-2003, 09:46 PM

Iarwain Ben-Adar, Eldest and Fatherless, he was awake before the elves, before the dwarves, he witnessed everything.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-23-2003, 11:30 PM

Well Tom Bombadil is the oldest of course.

Quote:

"Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made the paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord cam from Outside."

Scott · 03-23-2003, 11:38 PM

I always thought that the evolution of the ents was intended to be a combination of both the Silmarillion and what Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin.
>The elves awake
>The ents awake shortly after the elves do
>The elves converse with the ents and teach them to speak
>The whole "Entwives" episode occurs

I'll talk about Tommy when I have a few books cracked open to back up my BS [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarephelion · 03-24-2003, 01:01 AM

The esteemed Mr. Bombadil aside, the Silmarillion states that Ents would come at the awakening of the Elves. Yavanna had conceived of them in the music of the Ainur and they are as old as any of the children of Eru but.

Quote:

Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

These words were related by Manwe to Yavanna as they had been spoken by Eru Himself. I suppose it could be argued that the spirits summoned by the thought of Yavanna were older than the Elves, but this is getting pretty picky

Legolas · 03-24-2003, 01:21 AM

Quote:

I´m just wondering if Fangorn is the oldest living being in ME? And if so isn´t the case, then who is?

Tom Bombadil, apparently.

Not Treebeard, definitely.

When asked about the matter, Tolkien noted that while Treebeard does have some wisdom, he is not all-knowing. He is not the author, but just a character in the author's story.

From Letter No. 153:

Quote:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came.

This thread is a duplicate.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-24-2003, 01:28 PM

Thanks for the link, Legolas - closing this thread. Please continue on the other one.

03-23-2003, 12:32 PM	#1
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	[Treebeard/Tom Bombadil] Fangorn/Treebeard= Oldest? Hello everybody! I´m just wondering if Fangorn is the oldest living being in ME? And if so isn´t the case, then who is? thx for any replys [ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ] __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-23-2003, 12:39 PM	#2
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	He's an Ent. I may be wrong, but I always figured the Ents were awoken shortly after the Elves. Certainly not before. I believe Cirdan of Grey Havens may still be an elf from this period, so may be even older than Treebeard. Who is the oldest? I think that's up for debate, but I would put my money on Tom Bombadil. Then again, that would all depend on exactly what you thought Tom was as well. H.C. [ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ] __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

03-23-2003, 12:47 PM	#4
dragoneyes Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Completely lost track, sorry! Posts: 733	Is not Tom Bombadil 'the oldest and the fatherless' making him the oldest, whatever you think he is. __________________ "We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo.

03-23-2003, 12:54 PM	#6
Lutfiska Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 60	But I think Fangorn says something like: "I am the oldest" (my book is stolen :s so i cant check it right now)... Do you know anything about this? __________________ Go Bushie Vote yes to war

03-23-2003, 01:02 PM	#8
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 332	I don't have a book around either, but perhaps he meant of creatures he'd met. I'm just guessing, and probably wrong, though. __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

03-23-2003, 12:54 PM	#5
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	But Tom's not really a creature of ME, he's a Maiar (or so we think). And I can see this topic is going to be shut down becuase there are a thousand other topics about who the older person in ME is.

03-23-2003, 01:01 PM	#7
Yavanna Newly Deceased Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Right here... Posts: 10	I would say Fangorn was the oldest living thing, because Manwë said that when the Children awoke, so would the Ents. Although so far in the Silmarillion, it hasn't mentioned anything about Tom Bombadil.

03-23-2003, 01:13 PM	#9
tangerine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 100	I would be inclined to say that they are the oldest living beings, since they were made just after the dwarves were fashioned, which is before the Elves came. Yarvanna made them to protect the trees, and Treebeard gives reference in LOTR as to being the oldest of his race. The only one older might be Tom Bombadil, and I'm not sure if he counts.

03-23-2003, 01:20 PM	#10
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	The way a read it is that the dwarves were made, but then put to sleep and only awoken after the elves, who've been asleep much longer than that. I think it's debatable as to which is older (and I'm sure it's been debated to death anyway [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) H.c. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

03-23-2003, 09:31 PM	#11
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	correct me if i am wrong, but wernt ents origionally trees that were awoken? because they turn back into trees after a wile or so the oldest ents other then treebeard did. so technichly wouldnt that make him be the oldest because there were trees when the elves were awoken, were there not? __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!

03-23-2003, 09:33 PM	#12
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	It's confusing, as there seem to be two theories. That that the first ents "awoke" much as the elves did, being created by Mawnë or Eru. And then there is the explanation that they were awakened by the elves, which seems to fit what Treebeard says, but not what is implied in the Silm.

03-23-2003, 09:44 PM	#13
Chancellen the True Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 22	The dwarves were alive before they were put asleep. "and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy." page 41, The Silmarillion. If you are going to allow Tom Bombadil, then he would have to be the oldest. He says that he was there before the trees and the first raindrop. That last part is a pretty serious statement. I take it to mean that he was there before Manwe and Ulmo got together to invent rain. That's old. He also says that he was there before the dark one came from the outside (paraphrase). This statement does not make clear weather he means before Melkor came the first time or after his three age imprisiment, but that is a discussion for another thread. Thanks. __________________ "Shall we mourn here deedless for ever, a shadow folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea?" Feanor at Tirion upon Tuna

03-23-2003, 09:46 PM	#14
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Iarwain Ben-Adar, Eldest and Fatherless, he was awake before the elves, before the dwarves, he witnessed everything. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-23-2003, 11:38 PM	#16
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I always thought that the evolution of the ents was intended to be a combination of both the Silmarillion and what Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin. >The elves awake >The ents awake shortly after the elves do >The elves converse with the ents and teach them to speak >The whole "Entwives" episode occurs I'll talk about Tommy when I have a few books cracked open to back up my BS [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

03-24-2003, 01:28 PM	#19
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Thanks for the link, Legolas - closing this thread. Please continue on the other one. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'