Two Glorfindels?

[Frodo Baggins]

I have not read that part yet, but it says that Glorfindel the elf was killed while fighting a Balrog. If this is true what about the Glorfindel in LOTR? Are there two of them??

[obloquy]

Do a search.

[Frodo Baggins]

Oh your a real help Oblo [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] NOT!!!!

[obloquy]

I'm serious. Try it.

[The Fifth]

No, Glorfindel was killed and reincarnated into another body, conviently named Glorfindel.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Where's that?

[lathspell]

the Silmarillion

[Calencoire]

Well, I know that there was a Glorfindel in the First Age, who was killed, and one in the Third Age. I don't know if the first one was reincarnated or not. But there are some names that have been repeated, like Denethor, and Elf and a Man, Beren I've seen a few times... I can't think of any more right know.

[Daniel Telcontar]

They are the same. Although humans often give their sons elvish names, that has already been used (like Denethor), elves never. There can only be one Glorfindel. The story says, that Tolkien forgot, and so he incented the story that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar to fight Sauron and evil once again.

[Frodo Baggins]

Oh I see. Sent back you say? I was curious because this elf that died before Elrond was even born ends up haning out in Imladris. Ummm... What purpose did he serve in Imladris anyway???? Any purpose at all??

[burrahobbit]

What purpose did he serve in Imladris anyway????

Oppposing the forces of evil.

By the way, you should probably trim your signature down a bit. It's kind of long.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Eol]

As it was stated above, which seems to be more fesible, that Tolkien made a mistake and attempted to cover it up.

As for Glorfindel to be reincaranted, he must have been a pretty awsome warrior.

[Elsaur]

there are two answers really.one is that glorfindel was reincarnated as elves have a tendency to do that;2 is that glofindel is a common nane as glofindel is the male version of goldie-locks and glorfinniel is the female. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

Look at this thread for more clarification:
Glorfindel

[The Silver-shod Muse]

The story says, that Tolkien forgot, and so he incented the story that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar to fight Sauron and evil once again.

I take it that Tolkien's way of covering for this little wrinkle was probably the easiest, but it has certainly caused no small amount of confusion. The idea of reincarnation just seems to clash with the general feel of Middle Earth. Surely there were other already living elves that could've taken up Glorfindel's role with success, as well as other equally righteous elves that would've been worthy of a reincarnation and could've done much good in the War of the Ring. I suppose all's well that ends well in this case.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

[Eol]

It just seems that over all in Tolkien's work that he had a LOT of nifty ideas, but could not make up what he wanted to use.

[VanimaEdhel]

Well: if we remember correctly (well: if I remember correctly, that is), weren't there two different Elves named Legolas as well? Could that have been a reincarnation, or maybe just another common name (Greenleaf had to be a common Elf name). As for Glorfindel, I always thought that it was the reincarnation, because, as someone once phrased it to me:

When Elves died, they frequently got plopped back down on Middle Earth in different bodies, for they could not pass through the halls of Mandos, but were forced to wait.

That is roughly true what I have since then read from Tolkien (I'd already read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings...since then, I've read The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Lost Tales 1).

So: in conclusion: we don't really know who was a reincarnation with the same name or was just a coincidence, unless Tolkien specified. And: did it mention Glorfindel being reincarnated in The Sil? If so: gotta reread it again: already forgetting a lot of it.

I beleive that there is an essay in The Histories of Middle Earth Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth that deals specifically with Glorifindel and how I and II are the same Elf.

Glorifindel came back to ME sometime after the One Ring was forged in the 2nd Age and aided Gil-Galad in the War of Sauron and the Elves.

I also beleive that in one of the Letters of JRR Tolkien, towards the latter part of his life, the good Professor postulated that both Alatar and Pallando (the Blue-Wizards) came back with Glorifindel and that they in fact did not fail in their mission. In doing what they did, the Easterlings and Southrons resisted the power of Sauron more than if they hadnt come to Middle-Earth.

[Tirned Tinnu]

Yes! Necromancer, I confirm that. I have read Tolkien's statement on it.
Here's one:

Very notable is "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin". Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[The use of Glorfindel] in LotR is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silm, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings." He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.

And this, posted by Cian, on another site:

From 'Last Writings' in POME.
After the death of Glorfindel in the Silmarillion:

'He then became a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in
the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace
of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor with the Eldar who
had not rebelled, and in companionship with the Maiar.'

Tolkien then goes on to say that Glorfindel's spiritual power was
greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice in the Gondolin retreat, and is
'best supposed' to have returned during the SA, before the shadow fell
on Numenor, probably for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and
Elrond.
Cian

Pretty good stuff. I long ago made up my mind that both were one and the same. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aiwendil]

The idea of reincarnation just seems to clash with the general feel of Middle Earth.

Well, Elvish reincarnation is very much a part of the Middle-earth mythology/theology, particularly the philisophically consistent version worked out in the 1950s. It is talked about at length in HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring. That Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were the same person is pretty clearly established in HoMe XII, which Tirned Tinnu has just quoted.

[Orald]

Anyone ever notice the two Rúmil's? I didn't think this deserved an entire thread since there isn't much on either person.

Anyway there is a Rúmil in Lothlorien(Haldir's brother) and there is the Rúmil in Valinor, the guy that made up the writing system. Is there anyway that this could make sense? I am pretty sure Rúmil in Valinor didn't die and come back to life in Middle-Earth. Your thoughts?

[Tirned Tinnu]

Oh but there is more! There were even Elves named after men, if I remember rightly. I don't worry about it. I just let the names flow...

[Orald]

You mean Haldir? I don't really mind that very much, I don't really care about the two Rumil's either, I just think it is strange that Tolkien would still use the names after he published the LotR. I would think that he would have made the necessary changes.

[Frodo Baggins]

Not to mention that there was an Elf named Denethor and there is Denethor the Steward of Gondor, father of Boromir and Faramir