The Doom of Mandos

[Ainaserkewen]

After long searching through the "search" tool, I have found no real insight into my questions below:

I am very confused about he curse of Mandos and the doom of the Noldor.
All slain spirits of the children must first rest with Nämo in Mandos, I get that. And the Quendi can then be reincarnated back to middle-earth (Men leave the circles of Arda for ever)

My first question is what exactly is the curse of Mandos.

“…and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat you. And those that endure in Middle earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wand, and become shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.”

Does this mean that those would fall under the curse would be restless and weary in life or in death? To shame their actions against the Valar and the Teleri? And of those who fall under his curse, was it because they treated and befriended the Noldor?

“There Saeros in his great fear attempted the leap; but he failed in his footing on the far side and fell back with a cry, and was broken on a great stone in the water. So he ended his life in Doriath; and long would Mandos hold him.”

Was he speaking of the curse? Because Saeros was of the Nandor but he did abide in Doriath.

“Thus he [Thingol] wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared within the curse of Mandos.”

Or is it that all who desire the Silmarils and are part of its battle fall under the curse?
My final question is how far down the line did the curse abide?
Did it still burden the hearts of those who lived after the Silmarils were gone? Such as Galadriel, or Thingol’s people who then lived in Mirkwood.

One more thought then I’m done.
I wonder if there were still elves, great descendants of the Noldor (in the third age) who still pursued the Silmarils, or were the Noldor all spent away?
It’s interesting to imagine maybe a small band of elves that searched the corners of the world for the jewels of their long dead leader.
What are your thoughts?

[Findegil]

It is difficult to answer your questions, but I will try.

What was named the Doom of Mandos was in parts at least only a telling of the future. Mandos did reveal to the Noldor, that one day they had to leave Middle-Earth because the realm of Men would begin. And he told them what would be result of not leaving Middle-Earth. The process is named fading and could be described as the slow but constant loss of physical substance. The result in the end is the naked fea of the elves which not to be seen by men save the elf desired it and the men had a special talent for it.
In so fare the doom of Mandos applied to all Elves in Middle-Earth.

Further Mandos told the Noldor that their war on Morgoth was hopeless and he showed some things that would befall all that followed them in this war, like treachery and mistrust of one against the other. To this applied the reference of Doriath falling under the Doom when Thingol desired the Silmaril.

The addition that the Noldor would learn what death by violence is and that their dead would be held long in waiting by Mandos because of the rebellion of the Noldor, was only a reminder of the law or showing that this law would applied to the Noldor under than band. That it also applied to any other elves how had done some misdeeds like Saeros does not mean that he was considered a reble-Noldor.

I hope that was a bit helpful.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Potatothan]

“…and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat you. And those that endure in Middle earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wand, and become shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.”


The doom of mandos kinda comes down that they will be sorrow for ever. If they die, they will come to the hall's of mandos and would forever wish to have a body back in middle-earth for they will find no merci from their kin due to the kinslaying.

If they stay alive they will yearn for Valinor due to it's bliss and the sadness which will happen in middle-earth as Mandos had already seen. For mandos had foresight and he saw that their deeds would turn against them and that they would regret them forever and wanted to go to valinor for foregiving. But as stated above, they would receive none for their deeds were to be considered cruel. So the curse was heavy and it would affect them greatly as to be read in the silmarillion.

Or is it that all who desire the Silmarils and are part of its battle fall under the curse?

The doom was placed on those who aided the sons of Feanor or come within their doom. And denying them the silmaril, Thingol got ensnared in their doom as is stated in your quote.

My final question is how far down the line did the curse abide?
Did it still burden the hearts of those who lived after the Silmarils were gone? Such as Galadriel, or Thingol’s people who then lived in Mirkwood.

No it won't. For when the sons of Feanor died and the silmaril's vanished from middle-earth, the curse was forfilled. Galadriel went with Feanor at first, but had nothing to do in the kinslaying and had to take the long route over the ice. The doom did not take her. And thingol's followers never got in touch with the doom of mandos, only Thingol himself and his wife.

I wonder if there were still elves, great descendants of the Noldor (in the third age) who still pursued the Silmarils, or were the Noldor all spent away?
It’s interesting to imagine maybe a small band of elves that searched the corners of the world for the jewels of their long dead leader.
What are your thoughts?

The ones that searched for the silmaril's and desired them where only the son's of Feanor (jeez those guys are busy) and the ones that have seen the silmaril. But it is common knowledge that the silmaril's passed away in water, fire and sky. One only remains on the forehead of Earendil. The others were lost and most likely destroyed.

I hope this helps you out.

~Potatothan

[Finwe]

The Doom of Mandos mainly entailed that the Eldar would never find lasting peace in Middle-earth, both physical and mental, which was very true. What with sieges, slayings, Kinslayings, more sieges and slayings, murders, banishments, treachery, etc., life wasn't exactly peaceful for the Beleriandic Noldor and the Sindar. Even though the Sindar repudiated many of the Noldor, that Doom came upon them because the actions of the Noldor affected them. Thingol was affected by the Doom because he lusted after the Silmaril. All who desired the Silmaril would ultimately fall to a bitter doom, because it was not theirs. It wasn't even Fëanor's any more. In the Silmarils lived the last light of Aman, and thus, the jewels belonged to Aman itself, not to any one person. Fëanor may have created them, but their essence was not his. It was something so holy that no fëa could possess. It should have been revered by all, as the Trees were. Such extraordinary holiness cannot be ensnared in material fetters such as hate, possessiveness, and jealousy.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:17 PM January 23, 2004: Message edited by: Finwe ]

[Ainaserkewen]

Thanks for everyone who helped desipher the text. I read those passages spoken by Mandos so many times but all these questions were rising in my head. Thanks to all who helped, because you did.

The others were lost and most likely destroyed.

I've always liked to think that even though the silmarils were unreachable they still existed. I know that Earendil holds one and everyone could see it because he was a guiding star. The other two(one in the earth, one in the water), could they be destroyed? Perhaps the earth and the water only keep them as part of them. That's just what I like to believe. I always thought too that there were more people besides the sons of Feanor who searched for them, maybe their close kin and followers, but it makes sense that it was only them.

[The Saucepan Man]

There is a theory that the Arkenstone was the Silmaril that was lost in the crusts of the earth. I don't hold with it myself, but the argument is well made out on a thread somewhere around here.

[Lost One]

I think there is a need to separate the Doom of Mandos from the general problems of Middle-earth caused by the presence of Morgoth. The Sindar, Nandor, and even Avari back across the mountains could all suffer the effects of the wars, and the ultimate fading of the First Children, without the Doom coming into play. Also, the end of the First Age and loss of the Silmarils did not completely relieve the senior Noldor of their responsibility. While not forbidden the Undying Lands, they needed to seek permission and forgiveness to go there: Galadriel (pretty much the last survivor of the leaders of the Revolt generation) had rejected this, and remained in the west, eventually to see the errors of her ways and pass the test of the Ring.

[symestreem]

After reading this, I have a hypothetical question:

If someone desired the Silmarils to take them back to Aman, would the doom fall on them?

[Finwe]

Because they desired the Silmarils, the Doom would fall upon them. It's as simple as that. No matter what their intentions were, once someone desired the Silmarils, they were doomed.

[Angry Hill Troll]

A couple of points:

-the Silmarils have not been destroyed, nor can they be destroyed, except by Fëanor.

But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return...shall it be known of what substance [the Silmarils] were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.

It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart...

-Even though it says that Thingol was ensnared within the curse of Mandos, I think a more accurate statement would be that he was ensnared within the oath of Fëanor. It was ultimately Fëanor's sons, seeking to fullfill the Oath, who destroyed Doriath, although Thingol himself was killed by Dwarves. Strictly speaking, the Doom of Mandos didn't apply to Thingol, because he never violated the command of the Valar, as the Noldor did.

-Tolkien seems to have changed his mind about Galadriel (see the Unfinished Tales). In one version, she alone of the Noldor (as the last remaining leader of those who had left Aman against the command of the Valar) was forbidden from returning to Aman at the end of the First Age. (Strange, since Maédhros and Maglor were told to come to Aman for judgement as to whether they had a legitimate right to the Silmarils). In another version, Galadriel was permitted to return but "refused the pardon of the Valar", being proud and desirous of a realm of her own.

-It doesn't seem that having a Silmaril in itself is the problem. Eärendil used one to be able to sail to Valinor, and still has it. Rather it seems to be more a matter of being overly possessive of them, as Fëanor and his sons, and Thingol (and Morgoth for that matter) were, that leads to trouble.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:38 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]