Saruman's Ring - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Manwe Sulimo · 08-15-2002, 07:07 PM

Sorry if this has been discussed a thousand times....if it has, please direct me to the appropriate thread..

What was the significance of Saruman's ring? He declared himself a "Ring-maker" and Gandalf made the point of mentioning that he "wore a ring on his finger" during the Council of Elrond, and I was hoping to find some answers here. There's probably an answer in The Treason of Isengard, but, unfortunately, I don't have that yet. Thanks in advance for any help.

***Sharkû*** · 08-15-2002, 07:26 PM

I can remember this thread from the top of my head. Since the last post to it was 17 months ago, one can hardly blame you for not finding it.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

Manwe Sulimo · 08-15-2002, 07:38 PM

Thanks for the thread, Sharku.

Rumil · 08-15-2002, 07:44 PM

My take on the rings of Saruman (not just one ring but ringS) is that they aided him and his underlings in sorcery (for want of a better term)

Perhaps they enhanced Saruman's power of influence and the power by which he confined Gandalf to the roof (difficult to explain by other means?) Could they have given him greater power over the orcs and Dunlendings? Did he give out rings to lesser or apprentice sorcerors in order to 'light the fire of Orthanc' at Helm's Deep or did they simply have to light the blue touch paper and retire 20 paces? Did his rings confer invisibility - unlikely as I believe Gandalf says that only the rings of power can do this (I may be wrong, can't find the reference)

Sorry for lack of facts, just speculation, but as has been said before, JRRT didn't really expand on this subject.

Legolas · 08-15-2002, 07:50 PM

Also here and here.

Since these three threads are bound to be full of different views, perhaps you could compile the most substantial thoughts and give us your take, or pose other questions. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Manwe Sulimo · 08-15-2002, 07:51 PM

Ooooh...we should turn this into a speculation thread about the extent of Saruman's power of something. I would love to hear more about your theories about "underling sorcerors" and the such, Rumil.

Manwe Sulimo · 08-15-2002, 08:10 PM

Hmm...after looking through those threads that Legalos gave, I think that Saruman's Ring was used to extend his power to be more like Aulë's. Aulë created the Dwarves, and now Saruman created (or at least modified Orcs to create) the Uruk-hai.

Also, since Sauron and Saruman were both Maiar of Aulë, doesn't it stand to reason that the Dwarves should be easily corruptable to the side of evil? I know that they were the least likely to be turned to wraiths by the Rings (other than the Elves)...doesn't this strike anyone as strange?

Legolas · 08-15-2002, 08:34 PM

Since Aule made the dwarves and Sauron/Saruman were of his people, they were similar in nature. Dwarves did not become wraiths because of the rings' effects on them. Their wills weren't as bent to Sauron's will as much as the wills of men. They already had a great deal of greed in their nature and had already learned to focus it on mining. The rings just enhanced this greed. With all their greed so focused on their mining, their greed would make them quite stubborn, much like Sauron was stubborn and unyielding in his mission as the Dark Lord, and Saruman was stubborn in his pursuit of the One Ring.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Rumil · 08-28-2002, 08:09 PM

Oooops, sorry about the ringS bit, thought I remembered Saruman described as 'maker of rings' but checked and is in fact 'ring-maker'(still doesn't preclude him from making more than one really).

As for the underlings and apprentice sorcerors bit, I know there's no direct evidence, however to speculate;-

The 'fire of Orthanc' - presumably some explosive device- was used at Helm's Deep. Would S have entrusted this 'Magic' to ordinary orcs or Dunlendings? Surely he would have had some specially trained apprentices (lab technicians? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) to handle it.

I seem to remember the Dunlendings (or was it men of Carn Dum?) being described as having sorcerors - perhaps fertile recruiting grounds for Saruman?

Perhaps the ring allowed him to 'keep an eye' (sorry!) on his forces from the safety of Isengard and influence his officers.

08-29-2002, 12:49 AM

I have two thoughts on why Saruman created his Ring.

1. He was apeing Sauron down to small details. He had a tower and armies of orcs; why not a ring too?

2. He was trying anything to shield his thoughts from Galadriel, who could see even into Sauron's mind.

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 07:09 AM

Galadriel could see into Sauron's mind? Where does it say that?

O'Boile · 09-03-2002, 08:44 AM

It says that in that part where she is talking to Frodo and Sam when they are looking into the Mirror. Somewhere in there she mentions how she can precieve his thoughts, but her mind is still closed to him.

08-15-2002, 07:07 PM	#1
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Saruman's Ring Sorry if this has been discussed a thousand times....if it has, please direct me to the appropriate thread.. What was the significance of Saruman's ring? He declared himself a "Ring-maker" and Gandalf made the point of mentioning that he "wore a ring on his finger" during the Council of Elrond, and I was hoping to find some answers here. There's probably an answer in The Treason of Isengard, but, unfortunately, I don't have that yet. Thanks in advance for any help. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

08-15-2002, 07:38 PM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Thanks for the thread, Sharku. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

08-15-2002, 07:44 PM	#4
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	My take on the rings of Saruman (not just one ring but ringS) is that they aided him and his underlings in sorcery (for want of a better term) Perhaps they enhanced Saruman's power of influence and the power by which he confined Gandalf to the roof (difficult to explain by other means?) Could they have given him greater power over the orcs and Dunlendings? Did he give out rings to lesser or apprentice sorcerors in order to 'light the fire of Orthanc' at Helm's Deep or did they simply have to light the blue touch paper and retire 20 paces? Did his rings confer invisibility - unlikely as I believe Gandalf says that only the rings of power can do this (I may be wrong, can't find the reference) Sorry for lack of facts, just speculation, but as has been said before, JRRT didn't really expand on this subject. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

08-15-2002, 07:50 PM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Also here and here. Since these three threads are bound to be full of different views, perhaps you could compile the most substantial thoughts and give us your take, or pose other questions. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-15-2002, 07:51 PM	#6
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Ooooh...we should turn this into a speculation thread about the extent of Saruman's power of something. I would love to hear more about your theories about "underling sorcerors" and the such, Rumil. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

08-15-2002, 07:26 PM	#2
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	I can remember this thread from the top of my head. Since the last post to it was 17 months ago, one can hardly blame you for not finding it. [ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

08-15-2002, 08:10 PM	#7
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Hmm...after looking through those threads that Legalos gave, I think that Saruman's Ring was used to extend his power to be more like Aulë's. Aulë created the Dwarves, and now Saruman created (or at least modified Orcs to create) the Uruk-hai. Also, since Sauron and Saruman were both Maiar of Aulë, doesn't it stand to reason that the Dwarves should be easily corruptable to the side of evil? I know that they were the least likely to be turned to wraiths by the Rings (other than the Elves)...doesn't this strike anyone as strange? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

08-15-2002, 08:34 PM	#8
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Since Aule made the dwarves and Sauron/Saruman were of his people, they were similar in nature. Dwarves did not become wraiths because of the rings' effects on them. Their wills weren't as bent to Sauron's will as much as the wills of men. They already had a great deal of greed in their nature and had already learned to focus it on mining. The rings just enhanced this greed. With all their greed so focused on their mining, their greed would make them quite stubborn, much like Sauron was stubborn and unyielding in his mission as the Dark Lord, and Saruman was stubborn in his pursuit of the One Ring. [ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-28-2002, 08:09 PM	#9
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Oooops, sorry about the ringS bit, thought I remembered Saruman described as 'maker of rings' but checked and is in fact 'ring-maker'(still doesn't preclude him from making more than one really). As for the underlings and apprentice sorcerors bit, I know there's no direct evidence, however to speculate;- The 'fire of Orthanc' - presumably some explosive device- was used at Helm's Deep. Would S have entrusted this 'Magic' to ordinary orcs or Dunlendings? Surely he would have had some specially trained apprentices (lab technicians? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) to handle it. I seem to remember the Dunlendings (or was it men of Carn Dum?) being described as having sorcerors - perhaps fertile recruiting grounds for Saruman? Perhaps the ring allowed him to 'keep an eye' (sorry!) on his forces from the safety of Isengard and influence his officers. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

08-29-2002, 12:49 AM	#10
mfeltes Guest Posts: n/a	I have two thoughts on why Saruman created his Ring. 1. He was apeing Sauron down to small details. He had a tower and armies of orcs; why not a ring too? 2. He was trying anything to shield his thoughts from Galadriel, who could see even into Sauron's mind.

09-02-2002, 07:09 AM	#11
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Galadriel could see into Sauron's mind? Where does it say that? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-03-2002, 08:44 AM	#12
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	It says that in that part where she is talking to Frodo and Sam when they are looking into the Mirror. Somewhere in there she mentions how she can precieve his thoughts, but her mind is still closed to him.