The Sin of Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Anna Licumo · 07-09-2002, 04:04 PM

A question for all you fair folk. I am in the process of reading the Sil. for the first time, and I was wondering:
Orome led the Elves to Valinor, or at least tried; some stayed behind. It seemed to have taken quite a while, as the Elves wanted to explore ME. (Sorta like trying to take a toddler through Toys R Us, eh?) They tarried long, and some never came.
Well, Orome was their god, or angel, or however it pleases you, and his summons was from Manwe, who got it from Ilúvatar. So was ignoring his call considered a sin? Were the Morquendi less than the Light Elves because of this?

Another thing, too. (Now's the last chance to run away screaming, folks.) The Valar went to war against Morgoth to protect the Elves. Why, then, did they only have an indirect influence on the War of the Ring? Did they like Elves better, and since they were leaving, did not care of the fate of everyone else?

Sorry if this question has been asked before. The search button is not working for me, for some reason. Thank you for any thoughts and/or corrections [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] !

Kuruharan · 07-09-2002, 04:29 PM

I'll take a stab at answering that.
(An act similar to turning loose a rabid water-buffalo in a darkened china shop.)

As I understand it, the Elves migration was the idea of the Valar rather than a command from Iluvatar. Whether disobeying it was a 'sin' depends on your perspective.

The Elves that refused the call did not gain the wisdom that those who went to Valinor did. So in that sense they were less than the Elves that saw the Light of the Trees. But they were allowed to sail to Valinor after the fall of Morgoth, so they were not punished unless you consider having to endure the trials and tribulations of Middle earth to be punishment. (Which it was in the case of the Noldor, but that was the opposite situation later on down the road.)

The Valar gave up direct intervention in the world because their attempts to do so generally did not turn out too well. Take for example the command for the Elves to migrate to Aman. It did not entirely work because many of the Elves refused. It took them several attempts against Morgoth to finally get rid of him, and even then his work remained. Their gift of Numenor to the Edain backfired because the Numenorians turned on them and invaded Valinor. They figured that the indirect method would work at least as well as the direct, and that it might work better.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

GreatWarg · 07-09-2002, 04:33 PM

Well, I don't know if that would be considered a sin, but I think I know the answer to your other question.

The Elves, after the Last Alliance, traced the Ring still. (as Elrond says in the Council of Elrond) I don't think the Fellowship would have been created without the help of Elves; the great wisdom of Elrond, Gildor whom helps Sam, Frodo, and Pippin to Woodhall, Galadriel who shows the Mirror to Frodo and Sam, Celeborn with his.. warnings of Fangorn (?) and so on. The events that Elves were in later led to the Destruction of the Ring, however indirectly. They fought in the Last Alliance and suffered much loss from it, withdrawing themselves from the Realms of Men.

Quote:

The End is too great a claim for anybody...

Maédhros · 07-09-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

The Valar went to war against Morgoth to protect the Elves. Why, then, did they only have an indirect influence on the War of the Ring? Did they like Elves better, and since they were leaving, did not care of the fate of everyone else?

A very interesting question, which i have wonder myself. I think that you could say that they could have liked elves better because they could interact with them in Aman, but couldn't with men.
If you see it from a different perspective, you might say that the Valar waged war against Morgoth because of the coming of the elves, as you have stated, and when men arrived in ME, the Valar didn't do didly squat for them.
It leaves me wonder why.

Orofacion of the Vanyar · 07-09-2002, 04:45 PM

Sin? I wouldn't quite say sin, just misguided, like the innocence of a child, he doesn't know right from wrong when it comes to certain things.

Of course the Light Elves were greater then the Dark, but only slightly. The elves born in Aman were greater and more glorious, but had the same flaws as other Dark Elves. Look at Feanor, enough said. It really all depends on the elf. Then look at say, Elrond, he wasn't an Light Elf.

On the matter of why the Valar did not intervene during the War of the Ring, it was because when Aman was removed from Arda at the end of the Second Age, their power itself was partly removed as well. It's like severing a vein or artery, the still controlled certain things, but could no longer "drop by" at will.

amyrlis · 07-09-2002, 04:50 PM

I agree with your perspective regarding the "summons to Valinor", Kuruharan. The Valar loved the elves and wanted to be near them and protect them. Therefore, the Valar summoned the elves to join them in Valinor. It was not a command of Iluvatar, nor of the Valar. It was an more of an invitation.

I think that after the Numenoreans 'attempt' to sail on Valinor, the Valar (and Iluvatar) felt that they must remove their realm from the confines of the world to remove the temptation of the undying lands. Not that they were being greedy with their immortalness, after all, it is those who dwell there that are "undying", not the lands themselves. It seems that if the temptation were still within reach, events like the Fall of Numenor would happen again and again. In removing themselves further from Middle-Earth, the Valar consequently lessened their role, however, they did not completely forsake Middle-Earth. The Istari were sent to dwell among the people of Middle-Earth and serve as messengers of the Valar.

Kuruharan · 07-09-2002, 04:56 PM

(Hey amyrlis, it's good to here from you! It's been awhile. How's the move progressing?)

One other thing I forgot to mention. Some of the Elves who refused the Call (the Sindar) did themselves gain great wisdom, not as much as those who made the journey, but I don't think that it could be said that the deprevation of knowledge was a punishment.

Elendur · 07-10-2002, 02:59 AM

Regarding your question:

Quote:

Another thing, too. (Now's the last chance to run away screaming, folks.) The Valar went to war against Morgoth to protect the Elves. Why, then, did they only have an indirect influence on the War of the Ring? Did they like Elves better, and since they were leaving, did not care of the fate of everyone else?

They cared alot. But there were reasons they didn't directly go and defeat Sauron, which they could have done. I think you should read this thread.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001226

There was another VERY good thread on this subject, but I cant find it even after looking for a half hour. If someone else can find it, please post it here.

The main reasons of the thread were:

Using direct power and clashing with Sauron would have caused major damage to Middle Earth. Remember when the Valar came and fought Sauron. What use to be a huge amount of land is now under the sea, and there are mountains where there were none before. That gives you an idea of the destruction that can be done. Im sure the Valar didn't want Gondor to be an underwater city.

And also, the people of middle earth would have learned nothing by just having the Valar do the work for them. To defeat Sauron, all the races of Middle Earth had to work together, with the Istari leading them in this goal. That is the reason the Istari were sent to Middle Earth: To lead everyone to work together and do that task that needed to be done and learn something from it.

I did not explain this as well as it was explained in the other thread. I may be leaving some big gaps and I would hate to misinform anyone. So put more input into this.

Daniel Telcontar · 07-10-2002, 04:49 AM

Elendur is right; Unfinished Tales tells us about the Istari, and that they were sent merely to guide; They were not allowed to use their power against Sauron's power, since the Valar's previous attempts of using power had had such cataclysmic effects. So, to summon up, I don't think the Valar carred any less for ME, they had just learned a lesson and didn't want to make the smae mistake again.
Sorry if I repeated your arguments.

amyrlis · 07-10-2002, 10:15 AM

quote by Elendur

Quote:

the people of middle earth would have learned nothing by just having the Valar do the work for them

I agree with this in that it was time for the men to stand up and take charge of Middle Earth. They needed to "come into their own" and this was the chance to do it. If the Valar came in and cleaned up the mess, how could the men rightfully maintain claims of their kingship. I think the honourable ones (like Aragorn) would no longer feel fit to rule.

Kuruharan - Hello! I'm usually lurking around here every weekday, but I don't post much, as anyone can see if they compare my measly # of posts to my registered date of 1.5 years ago [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. As for the move, just put the house on the market 2 days ago, husband takes the Bar Exam in 20 days, Europe trip is 1 month away, movers are coming in 6 weeks, things are about to get crazy! Getting more and more excited about getting to not-so-sunny-and-hot upstate NY - it's been over 90 every day for a looong time here in CO, too hot for me!

Feanaro · 07-10-2002, 10:48 AM

Quote:

"Did they like Elves better, and since they were leaving, did not care of the fate of everyone else?"

I wouldn't say that the Valar liked elves better persay, but simply that elves were more like the Valar than men. Men possessed the gift of death. They were not bound to the world the way the elves were. I think its only natural for the Valar to take a greater liking to the Children of Iluvatar that were more similar in nature to their own.

07-09-2002, 04:04 PM	#1
Anna Licumo Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen... okay, KS actually. ::sigh:: Posts: 78	The Sin of Elves A question for all you fair folk. I am in the process of reading the Sil. for the first time, and I was wondering: Orome led the Elves to Valinor, or at least tried; some stayed behind. It seemed to have taken quite a while, as the Elves wanted to explore ME. (Sorta like trying to take a toddler through Toys R Us, eh?) They tarried long, and some never came. Well, Orome was their god, or angel, or however it pleases you, and his summons was from Manwe, who got it from Ilúvatar. So was ignoring his call considered a sin? Were the Morquendi less than the Light Elves because of this? Another thing, too. (Now's the last chance to run away screaming, folks.) The Valar went to war against Morgoth to protect the Elves. Why, then, did they only have an indirect influence on the War of the Ring? Did they like Elves better, and since they were leaving, did not care of the fate of everyone else? Sorry if this question has been asked before. The search button is not working for me, for some reason. Thank you for any thoughts and/or corrections [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ! __________________ Rock-a-bye Nazgul, on Weathertop, when the Ring calls, the horses will run. And when Sauron calls, the Nazgul will go, and down will come evil, Ringwraiths and all!

07-09-2002, 04:29 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	I'll take a stab at answering that. (An act similar to turning loose a rabid water-buffalo in a darkened china shop.) As I understand it, the Elves migration was the idea of the Valar rather than a command from Iluvatar. Whether disobeying it was a 'sin' depends on your perspective. The Elves that refused the call did not gain the wisdom that those who went to Valinor did. So in that sense they were less than the Elves that saw the Light of the Trees. But they were allowed to sail to Valinor after the fall of Morgoth, so they were not punished unless you consider having to endure the trials and tribulations of Middle earth to be punishment. (Which it was in the case of the Noldor, but that was the opposite situation later on down the road.) The Valar gave up direct intervention in the world because their attempts to do so generally did not turn out too well. Take for example the command for the Elves to migrate to Aman. It did not entirely work because many of the Elves refused. It took them several attempts against Morgoth to finally get rid of him, and even then his work remained. Their gift of Numenor to the Edain backfired because the Numenorians turned on them and invaded Valinor. They figured that the indirect method would work at least as well as the direct, and that it might work better. [ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-09-2002, 04:50 PM	#6
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	I agree with your perspective regarding the "summons to Valinor", Kuruharan. The Valar loved the elves and wanted to be near them and protect them. Therefore, the Valar summoned the elves to join them in Valinor. It was not a command of Iluvatar, nor of the Valar. It was an more of an invitation. I think that after the Numenoreans 'attempt' to sail on Valinor, the Valar (and Iluvatar) felt that they must remove their realm from the confines of the world to remove the temptation of the undying lands. Not that they were being greedy with their immortalness, after all, it is those who dwell there that are "undying", not the lands themselves. It seems that if the temptation were still within reach, events like the Fall of Numenor would happen again and again. In removing themselves further from Middle-Earth, the Valar consequently lessened their role, however, they did not completely forsake Middle-Earth. The Istari were sent to dwell among the people of Middle-Earth and serve as messengers of the Valar. __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

07-09-2002, 04:56 PM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	(Hey amyrlis, it's good to here from you! It's been awhile. How's the move progressing?) One other thing I forgot to mention. Some of the Elves who refused the Call (the Sindar) did themselves gain great wisdom, not as much as those who made the journey, but I don't think that it could be said that the deprevation of knowledge was a punishment. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-10-2002, 04:49 AM	#9
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Elendur is right; Unfinished Tales tells us about the Istari, and that they were sent merely to guide; They were not allowed to use their power against Sauron's power, since the Valar's previous attempts of using power had had such cataclysmic effects. So, to summon up, I don't think the Valar carred any less for ME, they had just learned a lesson and didn't want to make the smae mistake again. Sorry if I repeated your arguments. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

07-09-2002, 04:45 PM	#5
Orofacion of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Clayton, NC Posts: 102	Sin? I wouldn't quite say sin, just misguided, like the innocence of a child, he doesn't know right from wrong when it comes to certain things. Of course the Light Elves were greater then the Dark, but only slightly. The elves born in Aman were greater and more glorious, but had the same flaws as other Dark Elves. Look at Feanor, enough said. It really all depends on the elf. Then look at say, Elrond, he wasn't an Light Elf. On the matter of why the Valar did not intervene during the War of the Ring, it was because when Aman was removed from Arda at the end of the Second Age, their power itself was partly removed as well. It's like severing a vein or artery, the still controlled certain things, but could no longer "drop by" at will.