Older than Sauron? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lady Alasse · 02-27-2003, 09:24 PM

In TTT it says:

Quote:

We fought far under the Earth... The world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

-Gandalf
Are these nameless things ever mentioned again? (or before this) could they be worse than Balrogs? I was under the impression that Sauron was made before the beginning of ME. I did a quick search to see if this had already been adressed but didn't find anything about it.

Meoshi · 02-27-2003, 10:03 PM

Perhaps they were in the world before the Ainur came into it.

But that couldn't be so...they couldn't be evil then. If all evil was caused by Melkor, then how could an evil thing exist before the Ainur?

Maybe Illuvatar has an evil streak to him. That would explain the rotten shape he left the insignificant humans in at the end of the 3rd age, while coddling the elves.

Tar Elenion · 02-27-2003, 10:19 PM

Gandalf did not say they were evil, only nameless.
But yes, the context would be that they were there before Sauron came into the world.

Rumil · 02-28-2003, 12:34 PM

I wonder if the Wathcher in the water was one of these 'nameless things' ? (I've always thought of them as the 'disgusto-monsters' from D+D, green slime, carrion crawlers etc.!)

This raises an interesting point about Sauron though. As I understand it, the Valar and Maiar were created before Arda, so Sauron must be older than anything of middle earth. However, perhaps Gandalf was counting from when Sauron entered Arda.

The 'nameless things' must surely have been created (or twisted) by Melkor, so does this mean that Sauron was a relative latecomer (in maiar terms) to Arda?

the witch king · 02-28-2003, 01:16 PM

We dont know when Sauron came in to the world, Melkor could have turned these things to evil befor he even came in to contact with Sauron

Annunfuiniel · 02-28-2003, 01:45 PM

In Ainulindalë it reads that the valar came to Eä first and were called the Powers of the World. Manwë called for other spirits later to help to create Arda and combat the evils of Melkor.
But from the words in Valaquenta it could be inferred that the maiar came with the valar. Go figure...
But it is quite clear that ainur were created before the world existed and Sauron was older than anything on earth. So most likely Gandalf ment that those nameless things were in Middle-Earth before Sauron lay his foot there in his "physical" form. And Sauron didn't know them for Melkor had created them with his 'music' and they were only in his mind (well of course Eru knew their form).
I really don't know if this makes any sense. The whole issue gets the more confusing the more you think about it!
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

02-28-2003, 04:59 PM

i belive that these things probably were made during the music and were there thus before melkor or sauron came to middle earth and probably hid during the great darkness from dread creatures and elves under the mountains.

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-28-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

So most likely Gandalf ment that those nameless things were in Middle-Earth before Sauron lay his foot there in his "physical" form. And Sauron didn't know them for Melkor had created them with his 'music' and they were only in his mind (well of course Eru knew their form).

I really don't know if this makes any sense.

Makes a lot of sense to me, Annunfuiniel.

burrahobbit · 03-01-2003, 02:06 AM

Tolkien messed up. He would have fixed that if he'd noticed.

the guy who be short · 03-01-2003, 03:42 PM

TOLKIEN MESSED UP? TOLKIEN COULD NOT MESS UP! HE'S A GENIUS...actually, come to think of it, he probably messed up.

i have a contribution to make. could the maiar reproduce? if they could, sauron couldve been the son of two other maiar. this would mean he was younger than the earth, giving the nameless things which we should probably name now that we're gonna talk about them lots time to hide under the surface of arda.

the guy who be short · 03-01-2003, 03:54 PM

how about calling them squimplets? i like it. then again, i would. if u wanna be more normal, call them N.T.'s, but i prefer squimplets.

obloquy · 03-01-2003, 06:47 PM

Guy Who Be Short:

In response to your question, I provide you with a link to a really cool thread: Ëalar and Incarnation.

the guy who be short · 03-03-2003, 02:52 AM

the las of beleriand, HoME 3.

Quote:

there the twain enfolded phantom twilight
and dim mazes, dark, unholy,
in Nan Durgorthin where nameless gods
have shrouded shrines in shadows secret,
more old than morgoth or the ancient lords
the golden Gods of the golden west.

line 1475 of the lay of the children of hurin.

this shows that some things are older than even morgoth. but morgoth was an ainur who were created before the world. so this suggests that rather than just one god, eru, there were many, and eru was just one of them. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 03-03-2003, 06:23 AM

Age can only be measured from the point when a being enters time [and space], that is, enters Eä. Some of the beings who were with Eru before the creation of Eä entered it sooner, and are thus considered older, than others.

That is of course under the prerequisite that there was no (measurable) time before Eä came into existance. This is the case with just about any concept of time and the Ainulindale on the other hand of which I can think.

02-27-2003, 10:19 PM	#3
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	Gandalf did not say they were evil, only nameless. But yes, the context would be that they were there before Sauron came into the world. __________________ Tar-Elenion

02-28-2003, 12:34 PM	#4
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	I wonder if the Wathcher in the water was one of these 'nameless things' ? (I've always thought of them as the 'disgusto-monsters' from D+D, green slime, carrion crawlers etc.!) This raises an interesting point about Sauron though. As I understand it, the Valar and Maiar were created before Arda, so Sauron must be older than anything of middle earth. However, perhaps Gandalf was counting from when Sauron entered Arda. The 'nameless things' must surely have been created (or twisted) by Melkor, so does this mean that Sauron was a relative latecomer (in maiar terms) to Arda? __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

02-28-2003, 01:16 PM	#5
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	We dont know when Sauron came in to the world, Melkor could have turned these things to evil befor he even came in to contact with Sauron __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

02-28-2003, 01:45 PM	#6
Annunfuiniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Something close like Shire Posts: 769	In Ainulindalë it reads that the valar came to Eä first and were called the Powers of the World. Manwë called for other spirits later to help to create Arda and combat the evils of Melkor. But from the words in Valaquenta it could be inferred that the maiar came with the valar. Go figure... But it is quite clear that ainur were created before the world existed and Sauron was older than anything on earth. So most likely Gandalf ment that those nameless things were in Middle-Earth before Sauron lay his foot there in his "physical" form. And Sauron didn't know them for Melkor had created them with his 'music' and they were only in his mind (well of course Eru knew their form). I really don't know if this makes any sense. The whole issue gets the more confusing the more you think about it! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ] __________________ Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.

03-01-2003, 02:06 AM	#9
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Tolkien messed up. He would have fixed that if he'd noticed. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-27-2003, 10:03 PM	#2
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Perhaps they were in the world before the Ainur came into it. But that couldn't be so...they couldn't be evil then. If all evil was caused by Melkor, then how could an evil thing exist before the Ainur? Maybe Illuvatar has an evil streak to him. That would explain the rotten shape he left the insignificant humans in at the end of the 3rd age, while coddling the elves.

02-28-2003, 04:59 PM	#7
doom _huntress Guest Posts: n/a	i belive that these things probably were made during the music and were there thus before melkor or sauron came to middle earth and probably hid during the great darkness from dread creatures and elves under the mountains.

03-01-2003, 03:42 PM	#10
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	TOLKIEN MESSED UP? TOLKIEN COULD NOT MESS UP! HE'S A GENIUS...actually, come to think of it, he probably messed up. i have a contribution to make. could the maiar reproduce? if they could, sauron couldve been the son of two other maiar. this would mean he was younger than the earth, giving the nameless things which we should probably name now that we're gonna talk about them lots time to hide under the surface of arda.

03-01-2003, 03:54 PM	#11
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	how about calling them squimplets? i like it. then again, i would. if u wanna be more normal, call them N.T.'s, but i prefer squimplets.

03-01-2003, 06:47 PM	#12
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Guy Who Be Short: In response to your question, I provide you with a link to a really cool thread: Ëalar and Incarnation.

03-03-2003, 06:23 AM	#14
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Age can only be measured from the point when a being enters time [and space], that is, enters Eä. Some of the beings who were with Eru before the creation of Eä entered it sooner, and are thus considered older, than others. That is of course under the prerequisite that there was no (measurable) time before Eä came into existance. This is the case with just about any concept of time and the Ainulindale on the other hand of which I can think.