What would Tolkien think?

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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I have often wondered what Tolkien would have thought of the degree of scrutiny and analysis that his work undergoes on these forums. He is reputed to have been dismayed at the amount of attention which he received after the publication of LoTR. Some here, most recently in the infamous Bombadil thread, have chided others for being too interested in details, explanations and what was unsaid instead of simply appreciating the Professor's work. What does everyone think?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 388</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
hmm...

well the professor himself said somewhere 'I find this sort of thing all too attractive'.
And while he may have lamented certain excess, we are after all following his model.
Of course seperating the course from the fine in all endeavors is essential if one is not to fall asleep in the midst of labor and delight.

A further thought .
I surmise that JRRT was w/ his legendarium trying to do 2 things.
a]Build a bridge from what his heart loved [old Mythologies and lore , love of the countryside, love of beautiful languages and sounds] to what his spirit recognized as most True and essential. Christ and His Church.
As to why this was needed in 20th cent. england I wil leave aside for the moment.
b] create a mythology for england [and by extension for us in america-especially so in a way as we have no roots to compare w/ enland, even]
But in the end I think he was really concluding his tale when Finrod 'prophecies] if you will Christs inevitable incarnation. all roads thatattempt to follow Truth will in the end lead to Christ and when he had tied Middle -Earth
to Christ's Incarnation his work [in a spirutual sense ] was completed , it was for him an incredibly long rich and beautiful journey and he was rewarded for his Love of Beauty [Philokalia - in the greek], by a glimpse of both the Undying Lands and it's Immortals and vision of Arda less marred in the Shire and Middle-Earth.

He became in the 20th cent. a sort of unlikely Thoreau - who inspired subtly and overtly much of what is worthy in art and culture today .

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/6/01 12:46:37 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 553

Hmm indeed. I have no notion. On some points, maybe he would be angered by us not noticing obvious, and, on the other hand, we may have caused him to go on finding out things that were not from the beginning intended to be there, and were missed by the Prof himself, but now are discussed here (or am I being cheeky?)

[Mithadan]

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Re: hmm...

Let's provide a bit more from the letter Lindil quotes from.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I am not now sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good - certainly not for me who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. It is, I suppose, a tribute to the curious effect that a story has, when based on very elaborate and detailed workings, of geography, chronology, and language, that so many should clamour for sheer 'information', or 'lore'.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

The letter laments his promise to draft appendices to LoTR, because he worried they would not provide sufficient information to satisfy everyone, and might upset those who like the tale as a simple &quot;romance&quot; with &quot;unseen vistas&quot;.

From this letter we can see or can infer JRRT: (1) would understand our attraction to the &quot;game&quot; of deducing &quot;lore&quot;; (2) enjoyed the game himself; and (3) was not sure whether the desire for more information concerning ME was a good thing. However, as a stickler for detail, he might not appreciate erroneous speculation.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 473</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: hmm...

I like the idea tthat one shouldn't pay attention the the minor details. Since I haven't read all of HoME unlike some of you, this keeps you from discrediting every little thing that I say<img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> .

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: hmm...

&quot;I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.&quot;

--J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter #131)


This lore-seeking/speculation is needed so that &quot;other minds and hands&quot; will do well with what they fashion. I believe that this is the primary good served by these exercises (at least from the perspective of &quot;what is good for Middle-earth&quot.

It is, of course, also a &quot;game&quot; and an entertainment in it's own right.

Intellectual games of this sort can enhance creativity, logic, and the various skills of the studious. Not too mention provide a certain sense of identity, community, and companionship.

But, moderation in all things...

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 577</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: hmm...

Moderation? Me?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 476</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: hmm...

You don't know how close you are Mith, what all have you read that is Tolkien? That is what I thought.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 409</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: hmm...

If I'm one of the chiders alluded to in your original post, Mith, let me set the record straight. Far be it from me to chide anyone for paying too much attention to the details. I have been too often guilty of sifting through the minutiae and guessing at the meaning of what has been left unsaid to ever chide anyone on that score. When I opined that the professor might be amused by all the philosophizing, I didn't mean to imply that he would disapprove. On the contrary, I think that he would be (and was) flattered by the attention. I'd elaborate, but in my current condition (<img src=tired.gif ALT="/I"> ), I don't think I could add anything to the articulate and eloquent posts that have preceded me.

I must sign off now so that I can do some troll research, practice correcting my bad elvish phrasing habits, and memorize variations on Celeborn's heritage and ponder their various implications to the legendarium, both traditional and MT. A Tolkien fan's work is never done. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 390</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
hmm

Now I feel doubly chided!

lindil

</p>

[KayQy]

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Re: What would Tolkien think?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> all roads that attempt to follow Truth will in the end lead to Christ and when he had tied Middle-Earth to Christ's Incarnation<hr></blockquote>
Where exactly does he tie ME to Christ?

Details are very important, b/c it is the details that make the whole so fascinating. So it's okay to nitpick some as long as we don't forget the wonder of the whole (like that'll ever happen...)<img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

The days are fated to be filled with marvels.</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 395</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
where

KayQy asked/said <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Where exactly does he tie ME to Christ?--
Details are very important, b/c it is the details that make the whole so
fascinating. So it's okay to nitpick some as long as we don't forget the
wonder of the whole (like that'll ever happen...) &quot;<hr></blockquote>

In Morgoth's Ring [HoME vol 1<img src=alien.gif ALT="0]"> part four Athrebeth Finrod Ah Andreth .
There is a reference most Christians at least would call explicit - and I think anyone who has read his Letters and or Biography would concur that it was so, at least implicitly.

again Kay QY:&quot;So it's okay to nitpick some as long as we don't forget the
wonder of the whole'

I tend to agree whole heartedly.

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 480</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: where

Also in Silm. and I am sure in other books, but anyway the Ainulindë page 6. I think this sounds a great deal Christian, even if Tolkien didn't realize it.


</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 580</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: where

Tolkien undoubtedly did &quot;realize&quot; his work was colored by his religious beliefs. However, his tales, including the creation myth from Ainulindale are heavily influenced by northern mythology and JRRT has denied any direct intent to allegorize or draw from biblical sources, though he concedes a degree of &quot;moral&quot; or &quot;ethical&quot; similarity. His desire, often stated, was to spin a good yarn. He was a writer who was Christian, not a Christian writer.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 484</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: where

I Get that it was based on Norse mythology, but just read some of the things Eru says, they sound really familiar.

</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: where

Just where exactly do you both think the Ainulindalé is based on Norse mythology? Because as far as I know the Ainulindale and ME in general are quite distinct from the more... hmm, simple, rough and down-to-earth myths and creation myths of the Germanic and Norse people.

<h6>'Spring is all around you / and calls your name softly in the wind / Burning when the day is dying / she kills the rays of a boundless sun. / And falls after years of death / eternally on your tears of joy. / So feel, feel the hands of glory / that will lead you into a golden sea.' (Kirlian Camera, 'Ascension') </h6></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 2/8/01 1:05:03 pm

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 415</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: hmm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now I feel doubly chided!<hr></blockquote>Would you like some sour cream with those chides? <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Sorry, I guess I'm still feeling the aftereffects of that pun session a few nights ago.


</p>

[Child of the 7th Age]

To me, the question posed by Mithadan is an intriguing one. In this particular thread, posters went galloping off in one direction (among many they might have chosen to go). But I wanted to draw the question up again, and restate it in its original form:

What might the professor think of all our interpretations and hair splitting (of which I myself will confess great guilt!) rather than simply appreciating the tales as a form of entertainment? Do we take ourselves, and these writings too seriously? Or would you argue perhaps that society as a whole doesn't take them seriously enough?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Wow, I'm afraid that I am guilty of one thing - accepting Tolkien's stories and NOT questioning them ad infinitum. I tend to lean on them, adore them, and try to explain them.
I'm not one to pick apart every detail, like what were the dates, why doesn't that cooincide with this, why is this person doing that when it says they were doing something else in another version of the story....
ARRGH! I like to examine character development, history, legend and language...but that's it. No hysterics, here. I love his work, and it's that simple.
Somehow I see Tolkienite Picker-Aparter Types like I used to Star Trek geeks - "There are 79 episodes!" and "No, there are 80 if you count the extra episode for 'The Cage'!" Knockdown dragout fight ensues...
That's just not me.
I think Tolkien was a bit freaked by the Hippy movement, and by the public's view of it being a book that only a hippy could like. (Re: Pot use, trippy fantasy lands.)
I know that JRR wanted people to learn legends and elements of history and language, and that's exactly what I prefer to study.

[Mister Underhill]

Although the prof seems to have vacillated frequently between his devotion to Middle-earth and his black fear that it was all one big waste of time, I think in the end he would have approved of the extensive conversation his work has generated. Skimming through Letters, it’s easy to see that Tolkien was possessed (no less than any other writer) of a certain measure of vanity about his work and the various sorts of attention paid to it. You also don’t have to point out any one particular letter – just hand someone the book – to show that Tolkien himself was into conversing at length about the details, nuances, and deeper meanings of his work. And after all, the LotR and the wider Legendarium represent his life’s work, and so are in a unique position in literature – they’re dense with invention, subtext, detail, humor, profundity, and mystery, and are perfect fodder for the sort of long-winded analyses we like to indulge here. This is not to say that he would have approved of the conclusions drawn by some posters – auxiliary entrance/loading dock at Khazad-dûm, indeed! Hear that rattling sound? It’s the good professor turning over in his grave.

Tirned Tinnu, you’re not fooling anyone. That little Star Trek-geek lampoon was a bit too informed. It’s okay if you want to save money and let your Vulcan ears double as Elf ears – we won’t tell. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[mark12_30]

Greetings,

I'm reminded of something I read in Vinyar Tengwar about "Negation." Forgive me that I can't remember the syllable, and no doubt one of you can, but the quotes were of Tolkien saying that (elvish syllable) means yes; ten years later (elvish Syllable) means no; and then Frodo is quoted saying, "Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."

Did Tolkien take his elvish seriously? Of course. But even he realised that it had evolved over time, that he hadn't gotten everything in order, that there were contradictions over time, and he wanted to update everything..

I think his Letters show that he wanted above all that the heart of all he did, would remain intact. Hence his aversion to the movie-maker's script, in Letters; thy messed with the integrity of what he did; yet notice that his greatest fear was that the integrity of the characters would be trampled. I think we can extend that to the integrity of the visions themselves. Don't cheapen Frodo; Don't cheapen or belittle Gandalf or Aragorn or Elrond; don't cheapen Elvenhome or Lorien or Rivendell. Leave the integrity of each concept, of each person. All such twaddling (I think) annoyed him, but twaddling with the purity and luminosity and integrity of his creation annoyed him most of all.

He gladly entertained earnest questions about the characters and why they did what they did (see his long detailed responses concerning Frodo's final moments on Mt. Doom). He gladly entertained questions about Elvish words and phrases; but he gets most annoyed (Again, in the letters, don't have them with me, sorry) when somebody asks for a better explanation of why Gandalf didn't understand the Moria Gate inscription. Tolkien replies, in effect, Look, even though Gandalf admits to being distracted and temporarily stupid, why don't you take him at his word? If he says he missed it, he missed it; trust Gandalf and don't second-guess him.

I believe he would say the same thing to us. Trust the characters and trust the culture, and treat them with respect. If we started there, I think he would entertain whatever questions we had as long as his (admittedly finite) patience and strength held.

--Helen

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]