Where did Saruman go? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Foolofatook · 12-14-2003, 11:52 PM

I'm quite content with Sauron's whereabouts after death, to be a shadow wandering Middle Earth forever. But Saruman was rejected by the Valar as well. Does he share in Sauron's fate? I surely hope not. Saruman was indeed an evil force in the world at the end of the Third Age but he did so much good prior to his 60 or so years of evil at the most inappropriate time. Did he then die as a man would? Or possibly as an elf would?

Taking the Christian approach doesn't really answer my question either. Sauron is a Satan figure whereas Saruman is a Judas figure. Keeping that in mind the two should have different fates and while in the end it will not be good for Saruman there should be some difference. I also don't see him falling into the void. That would be the worst fate of all surpassing Melkor and Sauron, to live forever powerless with a master that you both betrayed and failed. It's an eternity of Wormtongue for a once noble and essentially good being. If you have any ideas I'd love to hear them.

Earendilyon · 12-15-2003, 04:29 AM

I think Saruman indeed shared Sauron's fate: he was rejected from Valinor, so he had to stay in Middle Earth as an impotent spirit.
To connect tp Cristianity: the Maiar Saruman and Sauron can be likened to fallen angels, like the angels who followed Satan. Sauron followed Morgoth in the beginning, Saruman in essence also followed Morgoth, just many millenia later.

Burzdol · 12-15-2003, 04:06 PM

So they are both spirits that roam Middle Earth?

Earendilyon · 12-16-2003, 03:35 AM

Yep. Probably hiding in some hole, as Saddam did [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-16-2003, 05:42 PM

Well then, we'll just have to start a completely useless war, led by a short, monkey-looking man, to try and ferret him out, so we can ask him where he went. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Amarie of the Vanyar · 12-21-2003, 11:31 AM

But Sauron ended up in the Void after the destruction of the Ring, his spirit is not wandering in Middle-Earth:

Quote:

'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'.
Gandalf to the Witch King; The Siege of Gondor; LotR

Quote:

But in the years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
Of the Enemies; Valaquenta; The Silmarillion

Findegil · 12-22-2003, 07:43 AM

The meaning of beening pushed into the viod in the case of Morgoth is stated by Tolkien to be executed and as a spirit band from Ea. The last part needed the special premission of Eru himself. It is very unlikely that such a premission was given in a minor case like Sauron.

The quotation given by Amarie could thus only mean the first part of the fate of Morgoth: to be robed of the physikal shape for ever. And that is exactly what is suggested as the fate of Sauron by Tolkien: a bodyless spirit fixed in the desire to rebuild a physikal form for itself.

Respectfully
Findegil

12-14-2003, 11:52 PM	#1
Foolofatook Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UMass Amherst Posts: 14	Where did Saruman go? I'm quite content with Sauron's whereabouts after death, to be a shadow wandering Middle Earth forever. But Saruman was rejected by the Valar as well. Does he share in Sauron's fate? I surely hope not. Saruman was indeed an evil force in the world at the end of the Third Age but he did so much good prior to his 60 or so years of evil at the most inappropriate time. Did he then die as a man would? Or possibly as an elf would? Taking the Christian approach doesn't really answer my question either. Sauron is a Satan figure whereas Saruman is a Judas figure. Keeping that in mind the two should have different fates and while in the end it will not be good for Saruman there should be some difference. I also don't see him falling into the void. That would be the worst fate of all surpassing Melkor and Sauron, to live forever powerless with a master that you both betrayed and failed. It's an eternity of Wormtongue for a once noble and essentially good being. If you have any ideas I'd love to hear them. __________________ Fond as he was of Frodo, Fatty Bolger had no desire to leave the Shire, nor to see what lay outside it.

12-15-2003, 04:29 AM	#2
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	I think Saruman indeed shared Sauron's fate: he was rejected from Valinor, so he had to stay in Middle Earth as an impotent spirit. To connect tp Cristianity: the Maiar Saruman and Sauron can be likened to fallen angels, like the angels who followed Satan. Sauron followed Morgoth in the beginning, Saruman in essence also followed Morgoth, just many millenia later. __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

12-15-2003, 04:06 PM	#3
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	So they are both spirits that roam Middle Earth? __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

12-16-2003, 03:35 AM	#4
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	Yep. Probably hiding in some hole, as Saddam did [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

12-16-2003, 05:42 PM	#5
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Well then, we'll just have to start a completely useless war, led by a short, monkey-looking man, to try and ferret him out, so we can ask him where he went. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-22-2003, 07:43 AM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The meaning of beening pushed into the viod in the case of Morgoth is stated by Tolkien to be executed and as a spirit band from Ea. The last part needed the special premission of Eru himself. It is very unlikely that such a premission was given in a minor case like Sauron. The quotation given by Amarie could thus only mean the first part of the fate of Morgoth: to be robed of the physikal shape for ever. And that is exactly what is suggested as the fate of Sauron by Tolkien: a bodyless spirit fixed in the desire to rebuild a physikal form for itself. Respectfully Findegil