What was Sauron?

i have been reading LoTR and thinking what was Sauron, and then i read the bit where Gandalf tosses the ring into the fire and he says the fire lettering on it is an old form of Elvish, now is Sauron forged the one ring, that would make him an elf. Right?

Sauron was not elvish. He was one of the Ainur, of the race called Maiar.

The elvish writing was due to Sauron forging the rings of power with the elven-smiths. He took what he learned from Celebrimbor to make the One Ring so that he would have power over the lesser rings.

[Serevian The Ranger]

he is not an elve because if he was sense he is evil he would be a dark elf or an orc

[obloquy]

Dark Elves were not evil.

[Serevian The Ranger]

i am sorry i am not done reading the similarion yet if they are not evil then why are they called dark

[Zippo]

Sauron Changed His form to appear friendly and persuaded the elves to make the rings...

[Elrian]

The language on the ring was that of Mordor. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Fenrir]

I'm not sure about dark elves. Maybe they're called that because they have never seen the Undying lands or because they didn't trust Orome.

[Voronwe]

The Moriquendi, literally 'Dark Elves' were all the elves who had never looked on the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The term 'Dark Elf', however is more commonly applied to the Avari (the Elves who refused Orome's summons).

The language of the writing on the ring was indeed the Black Speech of Mordor, but the letters it was written in were elvish letters of Eregion.

-Voronwe

[RyAN the Pure Heart]

*beats head against Silmarillion*

Read the books, and if you arent done reading the books post questions in the novices and newcommers forum, as that forum is geared towards people who aren't done yet...

*continues beating head against Silmarillion*

[Luineglin]

the reason for the writing was because there was no other writing really at that time that could be used

[Grey Ship]

Sauron was a balrog, one of the servants of Morgoth, who was a Vala. The balrogs was Maias serving Morgoth. Sauron was the most powerful balrog. But when Morgoth was overthrown and banished at the end of the first age, i think Sauron became Morgoth.

[RyAN the Pure Heart]

Originally posted by Grey Ship:
<STRONG>Sauron was a balrog, one of the servants of Morgoth, who was a Vala. The balrogs was Maias serving Morgoth. Sauron was the most powerful balrog. But when Morgoth was overthrown and banished at the end of the first age, i think Sauron became Morgoth.</STRONG>

I PRAY you are joking

[Grey Ship]

Its quite some time since i read this stuff, and i may be (totally) wrong. However, it would please me if you could correct me.

[Luineglin]

u are wrong, saruon was a mia but he was never a balrog and he was morgoroths Lt. and he never became a Vala like Morgoroth.

[Grey Ship]

Well, Melkor stopped beeing a Maia when he became Morgoth (or am i mistaken?), but when Morgoth where banished i sort of thought that Morgoths spirit lived on in Sauron... and wherent all the "Maias" serving Morgoth balrogs?

[Elenhin]

Melkor was originally the most powerful of the Valar. He fell to evil and became known as Morgoth. He gradually lost his power, but he never became a Maia - the chief difference between a Vala and a Maia is not in power, but in status. The Valar were the rulers and the first ones to enter the World. The Maiar were their followers and servants, and they came to the World later.

Sauron was Morgoth's most powerful servant, and his most trusted lieutenant. He was a Maia. This does not mean that he was a Balrog, though - not all of Morgoth's Maiarin servants were Balrogs. The word 'Balrog' means 'Demon of Might' and refers only to those spirits of fire who followed Morgoth.
Sauron was a Maia who followed Morgoth, but he wasn't a fire-spirit. Therefore he was not a Balrog.
Arien was a spirit of fire and a Maia, but she didn't follow Morgoth. Therefore she was not a Balrog.
Gothmog was a Maia who followed Morgoth, and he was a fire-spirit. Therefore he was a Balrog.

'Elf' - 'Elves'
'Vala' - 'Valar'
'Maia' - 'Maiar'

I hope this clears up most of the confusion.

[Luineglin]

well put u said as clear as it gets.

[Grey Ship]

so balrog doesnt mean "Maiar serving Morgoth", but "fire spirit serving Morgoth". well, thx [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

The Balrogs were Maian spirits seduced into Melkors service. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

To confirm what's correct:

Melkor was the greatest of the Vala. He fell into evil by coveting Arda and rejecting service to the music of Iluvatar, and waged for eons against the other Valar. He was later named Morgoth by Feanor. The greatest of the Children of Iluvatar (Elves & Men).

Many of the lesser Ainur or Maiar were seduced by Morgoth and in later ages manifest themselves as evil spirits of various sorts. They did not necessarily enter Ea later then the Valar, since Tulkus came lastest of all, but in the mind of Iluvatar the Maiar had lesser status and might.

Sauron was a servant of the Vala Aule and became, of course, Morgoth's chief lieutenant, and later his successor as the focus of evil in Middle-Earth.

Other Maiar, who were also of Aule's people, but of more limited capacity and cunning than Sauron became the Balrogs, orignally led by Gothmog, who slew Feanor, Fingon and other notables, but was finally destroyed by Ecthelion in the Fall of Gondolin.

Other "possible" forms of Maiar or of creatures inhabited by such dreadful spirits in the service of Morgoth may have been the vampires, werewolves, original dragons, and so forth.

Orcs were not Elves, dark or othewise. Although derived and bred over a long time from life forms that had been Elves, Orcs were the total antithesis and corruption of Elven spirit. They were corporeal demons, as the Balrogs were more spirit-like demons.

In a sense, Elves did not have the "Free Will" that Men possessed, in accordance with Tolkien's very Christian belief. They were spirits of this world, and very powerful spirits at that, which is why their earthly bodies did not naturally decay or fail.

In a sense Elves were predetermined to be good. They were not supposed to have the choice to do evil. This is one reason, I submit for why the kinslaying by the Nolder caused the Curse of Mandos, in that Feanor and his followers (to one degree or another) had broken the natural order.

Men in later days, as they do still, would slaughter each other at will, without any such curse. While not contrary to the earthly order, such action might still necessitate being answerable to Iluvatar. This type of notion for human sin is, perhaps, indicated in Turin's ultimate guilt, and the fall of the Numenoreans, as eventually redeemed by Aragorn's selfless obedience.

Thus, Elves are never evil. Dark Elves refers to the Moriquendi. The Calaquendi, or light elves, or commonly the High Elves, were those that saw the Light of the Two Trees and their decendents, whether born after the darkening in Aman or Middle-Earth; they also included Thingol, Luthien and her decendents. This link to the Undying Lands in the time of the Trees conveyed a certain majesty and power to exist at once in the world of the Seen and the Unseen as witnessed by Glorfindel's charge on the Nazgul or Ringwraiths.

The Moriquendi, thus, also had members of the Eldar, who harkened at first to the summons, including the Sindar, Nandor, and their subsets Falathrim and Green-Elves.

Still, "Dark Elves" often seems to refer only to the East Elves or Avari, who refused the summons, and who arguably do not ever appear in the stories again. The Silvan or Wood Elves of the Second and Third age seem to be almost exclusively of Nandorin descent with some Sindar.

Eol, father of Maeglin the traitor, is also referred to as the "Dark Elf" as a reflection of his lifestyle and disdainful attitude.

**********

"For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little."

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Also, as for the ring, it was in the Black Speach, but it used Elven Script because that's the only thing that worked on the ring, and Sauron could use and corrupt anything./

[Elenhin]

Originally posted by Man-of-the-Wold:
<STRONG>[Maiar] did not necessarily enter Ea later then the Valar, since Tulkus came lastest of all, but in the mind of Iluvatar the Maiar had lesser status and might.</STRONG>

I should have made a difference between Arda and Ea in my post. Maiar (apparently Tulkas came with them) came later to Arda than the Valar, but nothing was said about when they (and Tulkas) came to Ea.

<STRONG>Other Maiar, who were also of Aule's people, but of more limited capacity and cunning than Sauron became the Balrogs...</STRONG>

"But [Melkor] was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these sprits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."
-Valaquenta

The Balrogs weren't (necessarily) of Aule's people. I have always read that passage so that the Balrogs were among those spirits that were drawn to Melkor in the days of his greatness - before his fall to evil, that is. That would make the Balrogs the original Maiar of Melkor (just like Osse and Uinen are Maiar of Ulmo). The passage alone doesn't really suggest that, but we know that of all the Valar Melkor was the closest to a fire-Vala, and it would make sense if the fire-Maiar were originally of his people.

<STRONG>Orcs were not Elves, dark or othewise. Although derived and bred over a long time from life forms that had been Elves, Orcs were the total antithesis and corruption of Elven spirit. They were corporeal demons, as the Balrogs were more spirit-like demons.</STRONG>

IF the Orcs were bred from corrupted Elves (which is not certain, but quite probable), then they continued to be Elves, no matter how badly they were corrupted (until Mannish/Maiarin blood was mixed to the Orc-kind).

(With "they continued to be Elves" I mean that their fate was that of the Elves - immortality, summons to Mandos and all that. Their physical appearance and genetic makeup was, of course, widely different.)

<STRONG>In a sense Elves were predetermined to be good. They were not supposed to have the choice to do evil. This is one reason, I submit for why the kinslaying by the Nolder caused the Curse of Mandos, in that Feanor and his followers (to one degree or another) had broken the natural order.</STRONG>

The Elves were more bound to the Music of the Ainur and there probably was more predetermination in their lives (some could also foresee these predetermined things), but that doesn't mean that they didn't have free will of their own. They were just as free to do evil as Men - they just weren't all corrupted right after they awoke in Cuivienen and that's why they're generally "better" than Men.

<STRONG>Men in later days, as they do still, would slaughter each other at will, without any such curse.</STRONG>

Elves didn't need a curse to slaughter others either. The first Kinslaying in Alqualonde was not a result of any curse. And as another example, Eol tried to kill his son (but hit his wife instead) without any curse on them.

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Elenhin ]

[Cirdan the Shipwright]

AAAAGGGGHHHH!

Okay, let me take a stab at this. Correct me if I am wrong.

Valar = Equivalent to Gods (14 of these, not including Melkor)
Maiar = Equivalent to Angels, but ranging in power from relatively weak to almost as powerful as the Valar (Number Unknown)

Virtually all of the Maiar were 'assigned' to a Valar. It is inferred that the largest number of these were recruited directly by Melkor. About twenty were named throughout the books. These are the ones that I can remember (there may be others) along with their ORIGINAL Valarian 'assignment'.

MELKOR(Lord of Fire and Darkness)
Fire Spirits; Gothmog, Arien (she refused to serve him presumably after he began his rebellion and switched her allegiance to Manwe)

MANWE (Lord of Air and King of the Valar)
Air Spirits; Eonwe

ULMO (Lord of the Sea)
Water Spirits; Osse (temporarily recruited by Melkor), Uinen and Salmar

AULE (Lord of the Earth)
Earth Spirits; Sauron (later went over to Melkor), Saruman (later became an Istari)

OROME (The Hunter)
Alatar, Pallando (later they became Istari known as the Blue Wizards), Tilion

MANDOS (Lord of the Underworld)
- No Known Maiar -

LORIEN (Lord of Gardens)
Silmo

TULKAS (Lord of Battle)
- No Known Maiar -

VARDA (Queen of Light)
Ilmare

YAVANNA (Queen of Nature)
Radagast (later became an Istari)

NIENNA (Queen of Wisdom)
Gandalf (later became an Istari)

VANA (?)
Urwen

VAIRE (Queen of Fate)
- No Known Maiar -

ESTE (?)
Melian

NESSA (?)
- No Known Maiar -

UNAFFILIATED
Tom Bombadil, Goldberry

In addition, Ungoliant may have been a Maiar (it is suggested that she once served Vaire), and Thorondor as well (who served Manwe).

That should take care of it.

- Cirdan

[Rhudladion]

So what you guys are saying is that the Balrogs of old have been transformed into Hobbits by the Valar, and now they serve Theoden King?

...is this right Ryan the Pure Heart?

[Elrian]

Balrog Hobbits of Rohan: The invasion of the Fourth Age! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] OK!

The Valar were Titled:
Manwe: King of Arda
Varda: Queen of Stars
Ulmo: King of the Sea
Nienna: Queen of Comfort
Aule: The Smith/ Maker
Yavannah: Queen of the Earth
Mandos: Doomsman of the Valar
Vaire: The Weaver
Lorien: Master of Destiny
Este: The Healer
Orome: The Hunter/Great Rider
Nessa: The Dancer
Tulkas: The Valiant
Vana: The Ever Young

I was under the impression that Gandalf, or Olórin, was a Maiar under Aüle, and not Nienna. Am I wrong?

[Elrian]

He learned pity and patience from Nienna, so he was a Maia of Nienna. He may have served others but it didn't say. (Like Melian has served Vana, Este and Lorien)

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Great lists. Also, I think Olorin (aka Gandalf) had connections with Mandos and Varda, but essentially I want to respond to Elenhim's reply, which took me to task on somethings. Excuse my lack of facility with the quote generating thing:

1. I still not sure about the arrival in Arda, but I suppose its implied that the Valar brought the Maier in later, and that Tulkus was sent to join the fight against Melkor.

2. Yes, quite, the Melkor corrupted an unspecified number of Maiar to various ends. My thinking is that the ones that became Balrogs were primarily or exclusively "Fire Spirits" which I connected with Aule's folk, but I can't find any such indication now. They may have simply been the first corrupted by Melkor and not of any other Valar's at that time.

3. I agree that Orcs were like Elves, in that they were likewise immortal and did not die of natural decay. But putting aside genetics and reproduction through spawning, they were fully corrupted and perverted spirits. The antithesis of the Elves from which Melkor derived. That he could do this to the raw material Eru is conceivable. As far as where they went when killed, one could see them as being saved and reverting to an Elven spirit, but I think not. They were another type of people, and what cruel spirit was relieved of the torment of life when an Orc was killed probably either went to where Morgoth waited until the second doom, or they vanished completely into the void like Sauron, Saruman, the Balrogs and the Nazgul.

4. Yes, I agree that the Elves were more engrained in the world of Arda, both physical and spiritual, where human spirits are not of Arda. So, yes, Elven lives were more pre-determined. Thus, for them to excercise free will in a fully evil way is very extraordinary. In their natural state Elves would be a model of sin-less-ness, which is why Ulmo resisted the migration of Elves to Aman. Admittedly, Morgoth serves as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden (or Hildorien, and is part of the human condition. But his power was checked in those days, and he also had opportunity to influence the early elves. No, I still think that Free Will is for men the norm rather than the exception that it is for the Quendi in Tolkien's world.

5. This is why kinslaying among men did not CAUSE a curse to be issued, whereas for Feanor and sons to have done such, brought a terrible DOOM, which in turn entangled others beyond even the Noldor, including the Sindar and Edain. In a way, the tragedy of Eol, Aredhel and Maeglin is just part of that Doom working its way through. Again, in many ways I think that Feanor, his sons and the other Noldor were in many ways striving for that human like freedom. Again, Eol is a craftman too, unusual among the Teleri. And, as with Aule, the desire to make and control the world while it can be very good, can be the cause of evil.

********

All this land is the land of the Teleri, and I will nolt deal nor have my sone deal with the slayers of our kin, the invaders and usurpers of our homes.

[Elenhin]

Orcs, their spirits:
I'm not sure what you mean with "antithesis of the Elves". If you mean that "ideal" Orc spirits were totally evil (as opposed to totally good "ideal" Elvish spirits) then I'm going to, politely, disagree with you.

If the Orcs were corrupted from Elves, they can't have been utterly irredeemable or totally evil. They might have seemed that way to Elves and Men, and the Free People certainly thought that an only good Orc is a dead Orc, but that doesn't mean that the Orcs were really born to be that way. LotR suggests that they had some semblance of morality remaining (Shagrat and Gorbag talking about the "Elf-Warrior" leaving his little friend behind: "That's how the Elves always do."). We also know that the Orcs would've forgotten any morality when a choice was to be made. The Orc societies were usually ruled by tyrants (often non-Orcs) and a peaceful Orc is of no use to a tyrant; and so any Orc who wished to be good wouldn't have had a chance to do so.

The destiny of a spirit of a dead Orc couldn't have been changed by Melkor, and I doubt that Eru would have punished an Orc - it wasn't the Orcs' fault that they were corrupted. If the Orcs were Elves, they would have gotten the same summons to Mandos as other Elves, but also the same right to disobey and stay as a houseless spirit in Arda. This, I believe, is what most of them decided to do - this would also give Sauron the Necromancer spirits to call upon. On the other hand, there are suggestions in Tolkien's texts that Mannish blood was mixed into Orcs even in the First Age. If this is the case, then the Orcs with Mannish blood would probably have gone to the same place as Men, and be healed.

Elves, free will and corruption:
Elves in their natural state were models of sinlessness? That could be said about Men as well - but neither of them were really in their natural (actally I think that 'original' would be a better word here) state. Nothing in Arda was free of Morgoth's corrupting influence. He didn't corrupt Elves as badly as Men (he didn't go to Cuivienen himself), but still every Elf we see in the stories was, more or less, corrupted.

I don't think that an Elf who excercises free will in an evil way is fully extraordinary (or unnatural), any more than a Man who does so. An evil Elda might be a rare case, but there were lots of Avari of whom we know very little of, and they were more susceptible to Morgoth's corrupting influence. Also, I don't think that predetermination is a restraint to any Elf, just that their actions and use of free will is more predictable than that of Men.

I don't think that the most important thing about the Mannish "special" free will in Tolkien's world is the ability to choose between good and evil. Men are called "the sole masters of themselves within Arda", yet everyone could freely choose between good and evil - the starter of evil and his mightiest followers were Ainur, and their actions in Arda were even more predetermined than those of Elves. I think that the "special" free will of Men was their ability to be free of the Music of the Ainur, and freedom from any kind of predetermination.

I wouldn't call the Doom of the Noldor a curse, but a prophecy. I don't think it caused any sorrows in itself - the Noldor and the followers of Feanor were mistrusted (and they mistrusted each other), not because of a curse on them but because of what they had done in Alqualonde. The only "curse" or "terrible doom" in work would be the Oath of Feanor, which caused all the Kinslayings.

[Carannillion]

Lots of very good points and clarifications here. I have two things to say:

1. Orcs were originally elves, captured and corrupted by Melkor. Whatever may happen to their spirit after death is another discussion (and a difficult one, feel free to start it as a new topic).

2. 'The Doom of the Noldor' may not correspond with what many think of as a traditional curse, but it was also called 'The Curse of Mandos'.

[obloquy]

1. Orcs were originally elves, captured and corrupted by Melkor. Whatever may happen to their spirit after death is another discussion (and a difficult one, feel free to start it as a new topic).

This is not wholly accurate. Granted, it is presented as a fact believed by the Elves in some of Tolkien's writings. However, his latest ideas on the origin of Orks deny this concept. Here's a succinct little snippet from Morgoth's Ring:

On the typescript of AAm my father noted against the account of the origin of the Orcs: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish'(p. 80).

MR contains some extensive essays on Orks that I'm sure you would be interested in.

[Carannillion]

Oh! My mistake. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Haven't read MR, so...