Contradictions in the Hobbit - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 11-22-2003, 03:10 AM

(I did the search but couldn't find a similar thread...)

I'm re-reading the Hobbit (again) and some things just don't seem to fit in when compared it to LotR trilogy and the way things are described there. Or is it because the Hobbit is written like storybook and not like some historic epic?

For example it is said about the Mirkwood elves that the only living creatures they didn't show any mercy were the giant spiders. There isn't said anything about orcs (or goblins if you like) and I can't see elves being too merciful to them either. Or does "the only" mean "the only plus then some other things"?

I have still a few examples left but have you noticed weird things or thing that doesn't really fit in the M-E you have learnt to know?

Eurytus · 11-22-2003, 04:12 AM

I would think that any contradictions that are in the Hobbit are there for the simple reason that the Hobbit was originally written primarily as a children’s story and any connections to the larger mythology that Tolkien had already been working on were largely either subconscious or throwaway one liners to Gondolin and the like.

Tolkien did in fact rewrite part of the Hobbit once he worked on LOTR to enable it to tie into the latter work (the Riddles in the Dark section). But it would have been impossible to make the two works completely tie up without major rewrites.

And some of the text it contains does lead to curious conundrums that are not addressed. For example if Trolls turn to stone in the sunlight then how on earth could Melkor have hoped to use them as troops? Unless the battle was over in a single day then how could they have been used in the battle in which Hurin slew seventy of them?

***Sharkû*** · 11-22-2003, 04:22 AM

As for trolls, cf. the juxtaposed articles Olog-Hai's and Lows and Olog-Hai Fidelity by the Barrow-Wight and Mister Underhill respectively.

Eurytus · 11-22-2003, 06:22 AM

Interesting articles yes, but they do not really change my view that creating a creature that turns to stone in the sun would basically be a totally worthless thing to do.
How would they travel long distances? How could they find shelter every day?

It doesn't make sense.

Findegil · 11-22-2003, 08:49 AM

May be when Melkor created the Trolls he did not know which ability sunlight would have. Trolls were most likely created during Melkors time in Utumno. Since he did not listen too much to the song Melkor would know of the coming of the sun may be but may be not of exactly what sunlight would mean for his creation.

Even if we take a round earth version of the mythology we can argue that Trolls were created during the long darkness that Melkor produced by clouds.

Respectfully
Findegil

Finwe · 11-22-2003, 10:31 AM

Trolls could also have been used for the heavy work in Morgoth's dungeons and under-ground mines/caverns in Utumno. That way, they would never see the light, and Morgoth had no way of telling what it would do to them.

Also, after the first Sun rise, and after Fingolfin marched into Beleriand, it is said that the Orcs were dismayed (and a lot of other stuff). Wouldn't Orcs be dismayed if they suddenly saw the big guys (i.e. Trolls) suddenly turn into stone?

The Sun could have also brought out their true nature. Morgoth made them in mockery of the Ents, and out of stone, so stone is in their nature. Light has always been an element that brings out the true nature in things. That is why all evil things (or at least most of them) are characterized by a love of the dark, because that darkness hides their true nature from both their friends (if they have any) and their enemies. Thus, once they go out into the light, their true nature, stone, is revealed, and they turn into stone.

11-23-2003, 09:57 PM

I would like to know about Glamdring, int The Hobbit it glows like Sting aroung Goblins and in the movies it doesnt

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 11-24-2003, 05:43 AM

Thanks to all for your answers!
Maybe the movie makers thought that one glowing sword is enough so Bilbo and Frodo had something very unique.

Another thing bothering me in the Hobbit is the Mirkwood elves. How can such an elegant and noble creature drink until he gets drunk?

Lord Elrond · 11-24-2003, 08:06 AM

There are a lot of things that happen in the book that don't happen in the movie as you are aware of however there are certain times when Glamdring does glow, when gandalf is fighting the Balrog, and even on the bridge, true it is not as bright as sting however he does sort of illude to it.

Sindae · 11-24-2003, 05:26 PM

the question about the drunk mirkwood elves is interesting...when i read the hobbit i didn't really think that the elves were these beautiful and perfect beings they're described as in LotR afterwards, so a drunk elf might fit in that book...but it sounds pretty strange after you've read LotR, that's right.

Alkanoonion · 11-25-2003, 09:51 PM

The discrepancy with the elves could be due to the fact that the Mirkwood elves are of a weaker spirit than that of the other elves, as they never saw the light of the two trees.

[ 10:53 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Alkanoonion ]

11-22-2003, 03:10 AM	#1
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	Contradictions in the Hobbit (I did the search but couldn't find a similar thread...) I'm re-reading the Hobbit (again) and some things just don't seem to fit in when compared it to LotR trilogy and the way things are described there. Or is it because the Hobbit is written like storybook and not like some historic epic? For example it is said about the Mirkwood elves that the only living creatures they didn't show any mercy were the giant spiders. There isn't said anything about orcs (or goblins if you like) and I can't see elves being too merciful to them either. Or does "the only" mean "the only plus then some other things"? I have still a few examples left but have you noticed weird things or thing that doesn't really fit in the M-E you have learnt to know? __________________ Fenris Wolf

11-22-2003, 04:12 AM	#2
Eurytus Wight Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 179	I would think that any contradictions that are in the Hobbit are there for the simple reason that the Hobbit was originally written primarily as a children’s story and any connections to the larger mythology that Tolkien had already been working on were largely either subconscious or throwaway one liners to Gondolin and the like. Tolkien did in fact rewrite part of the Hobbit once he worked on LOTR to enable it to tie into the latter work (the Riddles in the Dark section). But it would have been impossible to make the two works completely tie up without major rewrites. And some of the text it contains does lead to curious conundrums that are not addressed. For example if Trolls turn to stone in the sunlight then how on earth could Melkor have hoped to use them as troops? Unless the battle was over in a single day then how could they have been used in the battle in which Hurin slew seventy of them? __________________ "This is the most blatant case of false advertising since my suit against the movie The Neverending Story!" Lionel Hutz

11-22-2003, 06:22 AM	#4
Eurytus Wight Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: England Posts: 179	Interesting articles yes, but they do not really change my view that creating a creature that turns to stone in the sun would basically be a totally worthless thing to do. How would they travel long distances? How could they find shelter every day? It doesn't make sense. __________________ "This is the most blatant case of false advertising since my suit against the movie The Neverending Story!" Lionel Hutz

11-22-2003, 10:31 AM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Trolls could also have been used for the heavy work in Morgoth's dungeons and under-ground mines/caverns in Utumno. That way, they would never see the light, and Morgoth had no way of telling what it would do to them. Also, after the first Sun rise, and after Fingolfin marched into Beleriand, it is said that the Orcs were dismayed (and a lot of other stuff). Wouldn't Orcs be dismayed if they suddenly saw the big guys (i.e. Trolls) suddenly turn into stone? The Sun could have also brought out their true nature. Morgoth made them in mockery of the Ents, and out of stone, so stone is in their nature. Light has always been an element that brings out the true nature in things. That is why all evil things (or at least most of them) are characterized by a love of the dark, because that darkness hides their true nature from both their friends (if they have any) and their enemies. Thus, once they go out into the light, their true nature, stone, is revealed, and they turn into stone. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-24-2003, 05:43 AM	#8
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	Thanks to all for your answers! Maybe the movie makers thought that one glowing sword is enough so Bilbo and Frodo had something very unique. Another thing bothering me in the Hobbit is the Mirkwood elves. How can such an elegant and noble creature drink until he gets drunk? __________________ Fenris Wolf

11-22-2003, 04:22 AM	#3
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	As for trolls, cf. the juxtaposed articles Olog-Hai's and Lows and Olog-Hai Fidelity by the Barrow-Wight and Mister Underhill respectively.

11-22-2003, 08:49 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	May be when Melkor created the Trolls he did not know which ability sunlight would have. Trolls were most likely created during Melkors time in Utumno. Since he did not listen too much to the song Melkor would know of the coming of the sun may be but may be not of exactly what sunlight would mean for his creation. Even if we take a round earth version of the mythology we can argue that Trolls were created during the long darkness that Melkor produced by clouds. Respectfully Findegil

11-23-2003, 09:57 PM	#7
Eomer Guest Posts: n/a	I would like to know about Glamdring, int The Hobbit it glows like Sting aroung Goblins and in the movies it doesnt

11-24-2003, 08:06 AM	#9
Lord Elrond Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Buffalo Posts: 38	There are a lot of things that happen in the book that don't happen in the movie as you are aware of however there are certain times when Glamdring does glow, when gandalf is fighting the Balrog, and even on the bridge, true it is not as bright as sting however he does sort of illude to it. __________________ "May the blessing of Elves, Men, and other free peoples go with you"

11-24-2003, 05:26 PM	#10
Sindae Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: a messy room in the world's best city Posts: 95	the question about the drunk mirkwood elves is interesting...when i read the hobbit i didn't really think that the elves were these beautiful and perfect beings they're described as in LotR afterwards, so a drunk elf might fit in that book...but it sounds pretty strange after you've read LotR, that's right. __________________ My page about Iceland

11-25-2003, 09:51 PM	#11
Alkanoonion Spirit in Eriador Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Adelaide Posts: 392	The discrepancy with the elves could be due to the fact that the Mirkwood elves are of a weaker spirit than that of the other elves, as they never saw the light of the two trees. [ 10:53 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Alkanoonion ] __________________ In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.