What If? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tarlondeion Of Gondolin · 02-22-2002, 01:06 PM

If Sauron had retaken the Ring and conqured all of Middle Earth, would the Valar of intervened or not?

Alchrivëwen · 02-22-2002, 01:10 PM

They wouldn't have had a choice, if he took over middle earth he would try to take over Valinor

Voronwe · 02-22-2002, 03:55 PM

Not necessarily. Valinor had been removed from the visable world by that time. Even if it was reachable, Sauron would certainly have been wise enough to know that attacking the Valar in their impregnable land was hopeless.

If Sauron had conquered, I can't imagine the Valar leaving him to rule Middle Earth (and the entire races of men and dwarves) forever. But in any case the Valar did intervene, through the wizards and perhaps the eagles. It seems they intervened just enough, and no more, for Sauron to be defeated. Even then a large amount of luck was required.

-Voronwë

Aralaithiel · 02-22-2002, 04:38 PM

If I were the Valar, I would definitely do something! Can't have little annoyances like Sauron running around, 'cause they turn into large annoyances that kick butt!

Birdland · 02-22-2002, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Voronwe:
<STRONG>Not necessarily. Valinor had been removed from the visable world by that time. Even if it was reachable, Sauron would certainly have been wise enough to know that attacking the Valar in their impregnable land was hopeless.

If Sauron had conquered, I can't imagine the Valar leaving him to rule Middle Earth (and the entire races of men and dwarves) forever. But in any case the Valar did intervene, through the wizards and perhaps the eagles. -Voronwë</STRONG>

It always seemed to me that the Valar intervened much more in the outcome of the War of the Rings then through the wizards. I always felt that there was some kind of "divine intervention" involved throughout the tale. Or else there were a heck of a lot of coincidences.

Hmmm...I feel a thread comin' on...

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Eowyn of Ithilien · 02-23-2002, 05:51 AM

do the Valar create the opportunities or simply utilise them???? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elven-Maiden · 02-23-2002, 11:33 AM

Good topic! I think that the Valar would've HAD to do something. All their creations would be in danger of being destroyed, but would they have had the power to stop Sauron w/out the help of Illuvatar?

Anarya SilverBranch · 02-24-2002, 01:35 PM

Probably yes because they were up against Melkor's servent not Melkor himself, and no matter how 'powerful' Sauron got he could never out do the valar in my mind.

02-24-2002, 02:09 PM

It think that if Sauron had conquered M.E., he would work on a plan to free Morgoth from the void.

If not, then I don't think the Valar would personally take out Sauron, but problably do something to help the men and dwarves to vanquish Sauron themselves.

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shire_Folk ]

Lush · 02-24-2002, 06:46 PM

The Valar work in mysterious ways.

KayQy · 02-25-2002, 03:35 AM

The Valar did just enough, I believe. If they had done more Sauron might have caught on to something. And Iluvatar wasn't exactly twiddling his thumbs either, he just gave the right nudge to fit everything in place. "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker..."

StarJewel · 07-11-2003, 10:55 PM

I think they did intervene, but not in a way that was really obvious. They didnt come out themselves and kick Saurons ugly little rear end, but they helped those that did. Even if Sauron got the ring back, the result probably would have been a repeat of the War of Wrath

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 07-12-2003, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Even if Sauron got the ring back, the result probably would have been a repeat of the War of Wrath

Thank Iluvatar that never happened! Yes, the Valar would have done something like that if there were no other choice.

Quote:

It think that if Sauron had conquered M.E., he would work on a plan to free Morgoth from the void.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt Sauron would have wanted to step back and let Morgoth be the Dark Lord again. After all, in the end, Morgoth had lost much of his power and Sauron + Ring could be his match.

-Aredhel

FingolfintheBold · 07-12-2003, 09:39 AM

I cant see Sauron + Ring ever being a match for Morgoth the Black. After all, the ring has part of Sauron's original power in it. It doesnt exactly add to his power, it restores the power he let go to rule the rings.

And even with power diminished, Morgoth is still the mightiest of the Valar, with Sauron being only a lowly maiar he would have to step aside for the REAL Dark Lord. And that, In a word, would stink.

Meneltarmacil · 07-12-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Even if Sauron got the ring back, the result probably would have been a repeat of the War of Wrath

Let me guess... The Valar would probably do something catastrophic like making Mordor blow up or sink or something

The_Hand · 07-12-2003, 04:29 PM

When I first read lotr and Silm I thought the Valar were real jerks because they wouldn't help even when so many innocent people begged them to do something... But after reading The Hobbit, HoME and UT I understand that if the Valar came and made everything alright all the time it wouldn't be very...... what's the word.... well it wouldn't make very good books that for sure and as for the question I think the Valar didn't want to do much, but they knew how much was needed to be done to get the right outcome... did that make sense?? Anyways it made a bestseller [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

drigel · 07-14-2003, 10:56 AM

things i think showed the Valar did have influence in ME - although indirectly in some cases:
eagles
the Phial/star of Earendil
Bombadil
Ents
Paths of the Dead (Grey Army)
ummm thinking that there are more.....
Just a wonderfully written saga that incorporates both the mystical and the historical influence without being overly pious or heavy handed. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 07-14-2003, 12:20 PM

I think that Tolkien intended for us to attribute some of the more outlandish coincidences not to the Valar, but to Eru Ilúvatar himself. It would have seemed quite natural to him for divine intervention to aid those who served Eru's purposes in good faith (a Christian who doesn't believe in miracles is rare indeed). We must remember that the Valar are an angelic order, not deities in their own right: their activities are ultimately subject to the will of Eru, and any world-altering decision is taken with reference to his will.

Furthermore, the War of Wrath took place because in all of Middle-earth only the Valar had the power to defeat Morgoth, who was of their own order. As we can see from the events of The Lord of the Rings, once he had created and lost the One Ring, Sauron could be defeated by means other than full-scale intervention from Valinor.

Since this was difficult to achieve, they sent other beings of Sauron's own order - the Heren Istarion - to aid the free peoples in their fight against him, but there are other reasons why the Powers would not have wanted to intervene. Firstly there is the question of collateral damage: the War of Wrath destroyed all of Middle-earth from the sea in the West to the Ered Luin in the East. This is not the sort of calamity that one inflicts if there is an alternative. Also, in allowing the people of Middle-earth to defeat Sauron themselves, the Powers reinforced their independence from Valinor. A freedom and peace that is achieved thus, rather than imposed from outside, is more valued and thus more likely to last. No doubt the free peoples were helped by Eru and by the Valar, but it was done in such a way that Elves, Men, Hobbits and the rest would be able to believe that they had won on their own. Such victories tend to be treasured in a way that free gifts never are.

To my mind, though, it seems more than likely that the Valar (subject to the approval of Ilúvatar) would have intervened more directly had Sauron triumphed. Since aid had already been provided, and action taken to redress the balance in the light of Saruman's treachery, it seems very likely that something would have been done to remove the Dark Lord had he succeeded in crushing all other viable opposition to his will. Whether this action would have taken the form of a full-scale assault is another matter entirely.

02-22-2002, 01:06 PM	#1
Tarlondeion Of Gondolin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Gondolin the fair Posts: 94	What If? If Sauron had retaken the Ring and conqured all of Middle Earth, would the Valar of intervened or not?

02-22-2002, 01:10 PM	#2
Alchrivëwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everywhere and aywhere, look behind you! Posts: 56	They wouldn't have had a choice, if he took over middle earth he would try to take over Valinor __________________ A Elbereth Gilthoniel!

02-22-2002, 03:55 PM	#3
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	Not necessarily. Valinor had been removed from the visable world by that time. Even if it was reachable, Sauron would certainly have been wise enough to know that attacking the Valar in their impregnable land was hopeless. If Sauron had conquered, I can't imagine the Valar leaving him to rule Middle Earth (and the entire races of men and dwarves) forever. But in any case the Valar did intervene, through the wizards and perhaps the eagles. It seems they intervened just enough, and no more, for Sauron to be defeated. Even then a large amount of luck was required. -Voronwë __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

02-22-2002, 04:38 PM	#4
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	If I were the Valar, I would definitely do something! Can't have little annoyances like Sauron running around, 'cause they turn into large annoyances that kick butt! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-23-2002, 05:51 AM	#6
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	do the Valar create the opportunities or simply utilise them???? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

02-23-2002, 11:33 AM	#7
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Good topic! I think that the Valar would've HAD to do something. All their creations would be in danger of being destroyed, but would they have had the power to stop Sauron w/out the help of Illuvatar? __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-24-2002, 01:35 PM	#8
Anarya SilverBranch Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free. Posts: 245	Probably yes because they were up against Melkor's servent not Melkor himself, and no matter how 'powerful' Sauron got he could never out do the valar in my mind. __________________ Snow white! Snow White! O' Lady Clear! O' Queen Beyond the Western Seas! O' light to us that wander here amid the world of woven trees!

02-24-2002, 02:09 PM	#9
Shire_Folk Guest Posts: n/a	It think that if Sauron had conquered M.E., he would work on a plan to free Morgoth from the void. If not, then I don't think the Valar would personally take out Sauron, but problably do something to help the men and dwarves to vanquish Sauron themselves. [ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Shire_Folk ]

02-24-2002, 06:46 PM	#10
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	The Valar work in mysterious ways. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

02-25-2002, 03:35 AM	#11
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	The Valar did just enough, I believe. If they had done more Sauron might have caught on to something. And Iluvatar wasn't exactly twiddling his thumbs either, he just gave the right nudge to fit everything in place. "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker..." __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

07-11-2003, 10:55 PM	#12
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	I think they did intervene, but not in a way that was really obvious. They didnt come out themselves and kick Saurons ugly little rear end, but they helped those that did. Even if Sauron got the ring back, the result probably would have been a repeat of the War of Wrath __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

07-12-2003, 09:39 AM	#14
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	I cant see Sauron + Ring ever being a match for Morgoth the Black. After all, the ring has part of Sauron's original power in it. It doesnt exactly add to his power, it restores the power he let go to rule the rings. And even with power diminished, Morgoth is still the mightiest of the Valar, with Sauron being only a lowly maiar he would have to step aside for the REAL Dark Lord. And that, In a word, would stink. __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

07-12-2003, 04:29 PM	#16
The_Hand Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Mordor, M&Mcastle (Minas Morgul) Posts: 72	When I first read lotr and Silm I thought the Valar were real jerks because they wouldn't help even when so many innocent people begged them to do something... But after reading The Hobbit, HoME and UT I understand that if the Valar came and made everything alright all the time it wouldn't be very...... what's the word.... well it wouldn't make very good books that for sure and as for the question I think the Valar didn't want to do much, but they knew how much was needed to be done to get the right outcome... did that make sense?? Anyways it made a bestseller [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Member of: The Bodyparts of Sauron Russ 2006

07-14-2003, 10:56 AM	#17
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	things i think showed the Valar did have influence in ME - although indirectly in some cases: eagles the Phial/star of Earendil Bombadil Ents Paths of the Dead (Grey Army) ummm thinking that there are more..... Just a wonderfully written saga that incorporates both the mystical and the historical influence without being overly pious or heavy handed. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

07-14-2003, 12:20 PM	#18
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I think that Tolkien intended for us to attribute some of the more outlandish coincidences not to the Valar, but to Eru Ilúvatar himself. It would have seemed quite natural to him for divine intervention to aid those who served Eru's purposes in good faith (a Christian who doesn't believe in miracles is rare indeed). We must remember that the Valar are an angelic order, not deities in their own right: their activities are ultimately subject to the will of Eru, and any world-altering decision is taken with reference to his will. Furthermore, the War of Wrath took place because in all of Middle-earth only the Valar had the power to defeat Morgoth, who was of their own order. As we can see from the events of The Lord of the Rings, once he had created and lost the One Ring, Sauron could be defeated by means other than full-scale intervention from Valinor. Since this was difficult to achieve, they sent other beings of Sauron's own order - the Heren Istarion - to aid the free peoples in their fight against him, but there are other reasons why the Powers would not have wanted to intervene. Firstly there is the question of collateral damage: the War of Wrath destroyed all of Middle-earth from the sea in the West to the Ered Luin in the East. This is not the sort of calamity that one inflicts if there is an alternative. Also, in allowing the people of Middle-earth to defeat Sauron themselves, the Powers reinforced their independence from Valinor. A freedom and peace that is achieved thus, rather than imposed from outside, is more valued and thus more likely to last. No doubt the free peoples were helped by Eru and by the Valar, but it was done in such a way that Elves, Men, Hobbits and the rest would be able to believe that they had won on their own. Such victories tend to be treasured in a way that free gifts never are. To my mind, though, it seems more than likely that the Valar (subject to the approval of Ilúvatar) would have intervened more directly had Sauron triumphed. Since aid had already been provided, and action taken to redress the balance in the light of Saruman's treachery, it seems very likely that something would have been done to remove the Dark Lord had he succeeded in crushing all other viable opposition to his will. Whether this action would have taken the form of a full-scale assault is another matter entirely. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?