Tolkien's view on women - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Anorien · 07-08-2002, 12:46 AM

I have often wondered about this: Tolkien's veiw on women. People are saying that LOTR is a sexist book because it is mostly comprised of men. The leaders are men, the fellowship is all guys. But, if you look at it, there are a few women in it; like Arwen, Eowen, Galadriel... What are your views on Tolkien towards women? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-08-2002, 03:11 AM

Anorien, have a look at the "Fair" Sex thread ; you'll find lots on Tolkien's view of women there! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Elven-Maiden · 07-08-2002, 08:38 AM

I think Tolkien's view of women is far from sexist! All his female characters (humanoid females, that is....) are protrayed very well. They are prefect role-models for every girl.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-08-2002, 09:54 AM

My thoughts exactly, Elven-Maiden. Anorien, you'll find some very thought-provoking replies in the "Fair-Sex" thread.

akhtene · 07-08-2002, 05:13 PM

I absolutely agree with everything said above. Tolkien’s books are in no way sexist. Just… one small observation. Three elven women mary mortal men. Two of them sacrifice their immortality for their love (not sure about Idril)
Now only one elf-man finds a spouse out of his race, but then it’s a maya (and she also departs from Middle-Earth after his death). Even half-elven Dior has an elven wife.
So it seems that according to Tolkien mortal women aren’t good for elves. Why?

Is it only appearance (and quick aging) that matters?

Or is sacrifice for love more inherent in women (of any race)?

Daniel Telcontar · 07-08-2002, 05:17 PM

Well, we can't be sure. The Prince of Dol Amroth has elvish blood, and we don't know where it comes from. I just think the subject has been over-looked by Tolkien.

Kuruharan · 07-08-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Is it only appearance (and quick aging) that matters?

Yup. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Ulairi · 07-08-2002, 10:06 PM

One thing to be considered is the setting of the story as well. This has a middle-ages setting. During this time period nearly all women's role was the housewife. To take care of kids, food, and housework. They never had a chance to do anything greator magnificant.

This of course mainly reflects Humans and for the most part Hobbits. As for elves though this mentallity towards women was less than in humans. Elvish women never really went to war, but were more or less on the same level as men.

Just my thoughts. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ulairi ]

Eol · 07-11-2002, 04:11 PM

One thing that must be realized when looking over the literary works of JRR TOlkien is the timeperiod. Women were thought of differently, 1920s in Britain.

I personally think the women are wonderful as they are not all Xenas, as percieved in LOTR movie with Arwen as warrior chick and not the upright formal woman as described.

there is a balance a place for all of them. Some are heroic in show like Eowyen braving the unknown....and then there are Melian and Galadriel where politics matter, not whether you can swing a sword.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 07-11-2002, 06:33 PM

And then the rest are Rosa, the house-wife.

Tarthang · 07-11-2002, 09:16 PM

I've gotten the impression that JRRT sorta views (or seems to portray, rather) women as being on a pedestal. They tend to be in the background of his writtings, rather than in the forefront (with a few exceptions, such as Eowyn).
Wether or not my impression stems from a result of the type of story he was writing or from his own personal views, I can't say.

Anorien · 07-11-2002, 09:48 PM

Thanx you guys, that really clears it up.

Elendur · 07-11-2002, 10:23 PM

I dont think his views of women were sexist, but I think he does view women as more subservient than men. They play the supporting roles most of the time. They seem to mostly be the person behind the door talking with and advising the men, but rarely taking action themselves. I dont know how to say it exactly, but I can give a small exmample. In The Cottage of Lost Play Vairë doesn't sit with Lindo, she sits at his feet on the floor. That is, like I said, a small example, but it is part of the biggerp picture that women were not considered as high in status as men in Tolkiens books. But I wouldn't call that sexist. I think the views were just different towards women when Tolkien wrote his books.

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 08:15 AM

Quote:

I dont think his views of women were sexist, but I think he does view women as more subservient than men.

lmao [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

NicktheOrc · 07-12-2002, 08:25 AM

I agree with this. Tolkien focuses the book mainly on men.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: NicktheOrc ]

Child of the 7th Age · 07-12-2002, 01:32 PM

I do not agree that Tolkien viewed women as being "more subservient" than men. I do think he felt that, with the realties of childbearing, they had a different role in life. While those two concepts can and are confused sometime, they are not identical.

If a person were to say that women were uniformly "subservient" to men, I would indeed call that a sexist viewpoint. However, I do not think that this is what Tolkien said.

Look at the figure of Galadriel. How could she possibly be seen in a subservient role? Or what about Luthien? I just don't see it.
Even Smeagol's Stoor family was headed by a matriarch.

I wish Tolkien would have spent more time depicting a variety of female characters. He has a few wonderful women, but we do not get as many different characterizations as I would like. But, "subservience"? ---I just don't see it.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-13-2002, 02:24 AM

Aw, Sharon, you beat me to it!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] In rereading the LotR, I just noticed Tolkien's only (to my knowledge) use of the term "matriarch" in speaking of Gollum's grandmother. I thought that was interesting!

Elendur · 07-13-2002, 03:53 AM

I must say that my lack of vocabulary knowledge and my inability to express what I think in words has got me in trouble again. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I think that women were not unimportant or servile. That is quite opposite of what I think. I just meant to say that what they do in the stories is not considered to be something heroic or some very notable act. The men go out and fight heroicly while the women head for the hills and hope not to be attacked. So some people might get the idea that Tolkien is sexist, but he isn't at all. That was just their role in life (like you said Child of the 7th Age).

Bêthberry · 07-13-2002, 06:33 AM

Greetings Elendur,

*curtsies a first hello*

Although I, too, have some reservations about Tolkien's female characters, I think that this statement you made can be disproven:

Quote:

I just meant to say that what they do in the stories is not considered to be something heroic or some very notable act.

Galadriel has a very active role in The Silm, doesn't she? And what about Eowyn in LOTR?

Also, it is the old woman, Ioreth, the healer, who recalls that the hands of the king are the hands of a healer. She is given the character of a talkative old gossip, but her words remind Gandalf to bring Aragorn to the House of Healing to save Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry.

And even Lobelia stands up to Sharkey's men, suffering imprisonment for her pains. She doesn't run away.

I think I would agree with Child that I wish there was a greater variety of female characters, but, as Birdie said on another thread, given the role of women in traditional warrior and mythological epics, Tolkien has actually expanded the roles and importance of women in his work.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this!

Respectfully,
Bethberry

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

Anarya SilverBranch · 07-14-2002, 02:11 PM

I think Tolkien's view of women in lotr protrays them as goddess-like angels of sorts. Beautiful and pure, but not so pure enough not to go and butcher up a nazgul king [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I noticed that the main women seemed to liken a lot to ancient greek goddesses. Like Galadriel being Juno, Eowyn being Artemis, Goldberry being Demeter, and Arwen being Aphroditie. I personally would not mind being described as a goddess [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

07-08-2002, 12:46 AM	#1
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	Tolkien's view on women I have often wondered about this: Tolkien's veiw on women. People are saying that LOTR is a sexist book because it is mostly comprised of men. The leaders are men, the fellowship is all guys. But, if you look at it, there are a few women in it; like Arwen, Eowen, Galadriel... What are your views on Tolkien towards women? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!

07-08-2002, 03:11 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Anorien, have a look at the "Fair" Sex thread ; you'll find lots on Tolkien's view of women there! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-08-2002, 08:38 AM	#3
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I think Tolkien's view of women is far from sexist! All his female characters (humanoid females, that is....) are protrayed very well. They are prefect role-models for every girl. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

07-08-2002, 09:54 AM	#4
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	My thoughts exactly, Elven-Maiden. Anorien, you'll find some very thought-provoking replies in the "Fair-Sex" thread. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-08-2002, 05:13 PM	#5
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	I absolutely agree with everything said above. Tolkien’s books are in no way sexist. Just… one small observation. Three elven women mary mortal men. Two of them sacrifice their immortality for their love (not sure about Idril) Now only one elf-man finds a spouse out of his race, but then it’s a maya (and she also departs from Middle-Earth after his death). Even half-elven Dior has an elven wife. So it seems that according to Tolkien mortal women aren’t good for elves. Why? Is it only appearance (and quick aging) that matters? Or is sacrifice for love more inherent in women (of any race)? __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

07-08-2002, 05:17 PM	#6
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Well, we can't be sure. The Prince of Dol Amroth has elvish blood, and we don't know where it comes from. I just think the subject has been over-looked by Tolkien. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

07-08-2002, 10:06 PM	#8
Ulairi Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2002 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 22	One thing to be considered is the setting of the story as well. This has a middle-ages setting. During this time period nearly all women's role was the housewife. To take care of kids, food, and housework. They never had a chance to do anything greator magnificant. This of course mainly reflects Humans and for the most part Hobbits. As for elves though this mentallity towards women was less than in humans. Elvish women never really went to war, but were more or less on the same level as men. Just my thoughts. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ulairi ]

07-11-2002, 04:11 PM	#9
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	One thing that must be realized when looking over the literary works of JRR TOlkien is the timeperiod. Women were thought of differently, 1920s in Britain. I personally think the women are wonderful as they are not all Xenas, as percieved in LOTR movie with Arwen as warrior chick and not the upright formal woman as described. there is a balance a place for all of them. Some are heroic in show like Eowyen braving the unknown....and then there are Melian and Galadriel where politics matter, not whether you can swing a sword. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

07-11-2002, 06:33 PM	#10
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	And then the rest are Rosa, the house-wife. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

07-11-2002, 09:16 PM	#11
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	I've gotten the impression that JRRT sorta views (or seems to portray, rather) women as being on a pedestal. They tend to be in the background of his writtings, rather than in the forefront (with a few exceptions, such as Eowyn). Wether or not my impression stems from a result of the type of story he was writing or from his own personal views, I can't say.

07-11-2002, 09:48 PM	#12
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	Thanx you guys, that really clears it up. __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!

07-11-2002, 10:23 PM	#13
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I dont think his views of women were sexist, but I think he does view women as more subservient than men. They play the supporting roles most of the time. They seem to mostly be the person behind the door talking with and advising the men, but rarely taking action themselves. I dont know how to say it exactly, but I can give a small exmample. In The Cottage of Lost Play Vairë doesn't sit with Lindo, she sits at his feet on the floor. That is, like I said, a small example, but it is part of the biggerp picture that women were not considered as high in status as men in Tolkiens books. But I wouldn't call that sexist. I think the views were just different towards women when Tolkien wrote his books. __________________ Son of Isildur.

07-12-2002, 08:25 AM	#15
NicktheOrc Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Witch-Realm of Angmar, a.k.a. some place in Australia Posts: 40	I agree with this. Tolkien focuses the book mainly on men. [ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: NicktheOrc ] __________________ Hmmm... Spider-Man getting the One Ring would be an interesting crossover...

07-12-2002, 01:32 PM	#16
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	I do not agree that Tolkien viewed women as being "more subservient" than men. I do think he felt that, with the realties of childbearing, they had a different role in life. While those two concepts can and are confused sometime, they are not identical. If a person were to say that women were uniformly "subservient" to men, I would indeed call that a sexist viewpoint. However, I do not think that this is what Tolkien said. Look at the figure of Galadriel. How could she possibly be seen in a subservient role? Or what about Luthien? I just don't see it. Even Smeagol's Stoor family was headed by a matriarch. I wish Tolkien would have spent more time depicting a variety of female characters. He has a few wonderful women, but we do not get as many different characterizations as I would like. But, "subservience"? ---I just don't see it. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

07-13-2002, 02:24 AM	#17
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Aw, Sharon, you beat me to it!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] In rereading the LotR, I just noticed Tolkien's only (to my knowledge) use of the term "matriarch" in speaking of Gollum's grandmother. I thought that was interesting! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-13-2002, 03:53 AM	#18
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I must say that my lack of vocabulary knowledge and my inability to express what I think in words has got me in trouble again. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I think that women were not unimportant or servile. That is quite opposite of what I think. I just meant to say that what they do in the stories is not considered to be something heroic or some very notable act. The men go out and fight heroicly while the women head for the hills and hope not to be attacked. So some people might get the idea that Tolkien is sexist, but he isn't at all. That was just their role in life (like you said Child of the 7th Age). __________________ Son of Isildur.

07-14-2002, 02:11 PM	#20
Anarya SilverBranch Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free. Posts: 245	I think Tolkien's view of women in lotr protrays them as goddess-like angels of sorts. Beautiful and pure, but not so pure enough not to go and butcher up a nazgul king [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I noticed that the main women seemed to liken a lot to ancient greek goddesses. Like Galadriel being Juno, Eowyn being Artemis, Goldberry being Demeter, and Arwen being Aphroditie. I personally would not mind being described as a goddess [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Snow white! Snow White! O' Lady Clear! O' Queen Beyond the Western Seas! O' light to us that wander here amid the world of woven trees!