the wizards

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err...i was just wondering.. who were the other 2 wizards besides saruman, gandalf and radagast (hoped i spelled them correctly)

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[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Chief Wight
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Re: the wizards

There were originally 5 chief Istari (wizards) that arrived in the North of Middle-Earth around 1000 Third Age (TA). We know a lot about Saruman, Gandalf and Radgast because they were active in the West. But there was never very much information about the other two wizards.

What we do know about them is that their names were Alatar and Pallando, and they were both emmisaries of Orome. They were dressed in pale blue and thus known as the Ithryn Luin, the blue wizards. They went into the East with Saruman but never returned to the western part of the world. What they accomplished in the East, if anything, is unknown.



mailto:barrow-wight@kitgraphics.comThe Barrow-Wight</a>
http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a></p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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Re: the wizards

Can anyone help me out with that? The wizards I mean. Which books give the most details about the wizards?

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[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: the wizards

I asked the same question long ago,when this board was just beginning to thrive and have a lot of visitors,and burrahobbit said then that the answer could be found in UT and a HoME volume,but I don't know which one,as I do not have any.

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> and http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: the wizards

Yes, the Unfinished Tales has an entire chapter dedicated to the Istari. I don't know where they might be found in the HoME.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[burrahobbit]

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Re: the wizards

There is a good deal about them in the Unfinished Tales. I don't know anything about HoME, someone else must have mentioned that.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 39
Re: the wizards

It's said in UT that Ithryn Luin established some kind of misterious cults in the East, wich were long remembered afterwords (even after the fall of Sauron)

Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin &quot;the Blue Wizards&quot;, for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, oursuing there the ourposes for which rhey were sent, or perished, or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known

Also:

Manwe summoned counsil to send three emissaries to middle-Earth.
&quot;Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from flesh
...
But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar, who was sent by Orome. then Manwe asked, 'where was Olorin'? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of a council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olorin declared he was too weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should gi, and that he commanded Olorin. But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third' and Curumo remembered it.

Curumo (Saruman) took Aiwendil (Radagast) because Yavanna begged him, and Alatar took Pallando as a friend (those two are Blue Wizards.)

Also there was very interesting statement - they went east together with Saruman. What does it mean? There was alternative version too, stating that after some time they have fallen and fell to Sauron-worship.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: the wizards

I believe peoples of Middle Earth also provides some information. In this volume, for the first time it is stated that the purpose of the Blue Wizards may have been to set up &quot;cults&quot; or religons in the east to contest those set up by Sauron and that they were, at least partially, sucessful. Is there anyone who thinks Radagast was sucessful (as distinguished from merely &quot;not evil&quot.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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Re: the wizards

He was not unsuccessful. But then, you could say the same for Saruman.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: the wizards

Saruman went beyond doing no evil and thus failed utterly. Radagast appears to have done no evil but also did little good being over concerned with animals than the Free Kindreds. While Saruman failed, Radagast was not sucessful though, perhaps, not a failure.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 61
Re: the wizards

I don't think Radagast failed at all - he went to accomplish the qeust of Yavanna - cause Yavanna herself begged Curumo (Saruman) to take Aiwendil (Radagast). He was not meant at all to contact elves or men, but amend the kelvar hurted/tainted by Melkor (I suppose).

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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Re: the wizards

What I meant by Saruman not being unsuccessful is that, in the end, Sauron was defeated.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000062>burrahob bit</A> at: 10/2/00 2:58:04 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: the wizards

Raises an interesting question. When did Saruman start to go bad and did he, at first, merely succumb to the &quot;if we have the Ring it will help us defeat Sauron&quot; school?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
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Re: the wizards

Saruman no doubt believed that someone equal to the Ring's forger could control it. While this thought is not evil, just a bit foolish, I think only his motifs changed, the method, i.e. retrieving the Ring and using it, stayed the same. But too much knowledge and too less wisdom turned him evil step by step.

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[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the wizards

If you have to isolate a moment when he went bad beyond the shadow of a doubt, I'd say a good measure might be when he started employing Orcs as his servants (slaves). Once you truck with Orcs, you've crossed the Rubicon and become a Dark Lord wannabe.

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In case you didn't know...

One of the Blue ones was called Palando, but I can never remember the other. And where do you get Curumo from? Saruman's original name was CuruNIR (man of skill). I think he betrayed his mission when he concealed info on the Ring from the rest of the Council.

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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: In case you didn't know...

Mr. Underhill - Clearly, when he began accepting employment applications from orcs, Saruman had gone bad. But while he may have been foolish, he was not stupid. Its likely that he began planning to become mini-Sauron for a while before he began openly recruiting thugs. When did he first look in the palantir? Another possible date is when he claimed Isengard for his own.

Vefantur - Neat nick! The name Curumo appears in UT. When LoTR was written, JRRT's views on Quenya and Sindarin were not fixed and later changed. Welcome by the way! Nice point re: concealing Ring info. But couldn't he have been concealing Ring info out of fear of disapproval from the Council, rather than true evil?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: In case you didn't know...

You're right of course -- surely S began to go bad well before he dreamed up the &quot;White Hand&quot; logo and started slapping it on orc-mail in mass quantities. I was just trying to fix a point-of-no-return. A point when even he could no longer kid himself about his methods and motivations.

His first look into the palantir is a possibility. Which came first, that or claiming Orthanc? I think by the time he'd even moved this far along, he was already at least set up for his fall, since he clearly looked into the palantir without consulting any of the Wise or even making them aware of his find. Maybe at that point he was only guilty of pride, but as they say, &quot;Pride goeth before destruction.&quot;

I think he started to slide at the point in his research of the Rings of Power when he began coveting the One Ring for himself. Indeed, perhaps his decision to research the Rings to &quot;help&quot; the Council is a rationalization that is just as weak and self-serving as an alcoholic's claim that he &quot;only drinks socially&quot;. His idea that he could control the Ring shows that while he may have been &quot;book-smart&quot;, he certainly lacked &quot;street-smarts&quot;.

I'd say he was already well on his way to turning &quot;evil&quot; by the time he gained his info on the One Ring and concealed it from the Council. After all, they already were aware of his research by that time and acknowledged that he had the most Ring-lore. And if he wasn't already employing orcs at that point, I'm sure he was using them soon after to search for the Ring near the spot where Isildur fell.

I think it's interesting to observe that in Tolkien's writings, the most gifted of his characters are almost always the ones who fall away. Melkor was the most gifted and powerful of the Valar. The Noldor were the wisest and most favored of the various &quot;tribes&quot; of Elves. Feanor was the most talented and gifted of the Noldor. Of the tribes of Men, the Numenoreans stood at the forefront. And of the Istari, Saruman was clearly acknowledged as the wisest of the Wise. An interesting recurring theme.

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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: In case you didn't know...

The mighiest have the farthest to fall and suffer under the burden of the greatest temptations.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1279
Re: In case you didn't know...

Another interesting old post poked outta the dust of 18th or so page of The Books

[edit - funny how it is 69th page or so now - end of edit]

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: the wizards

I think that Saruman was evil in a small way when he came to the Middle Earth. Otherwise Cirdan would have given him the ring. But, he was definitely turning to his evil ways when he chose to live in Isnegard. He was looking to become powerful and gain the respect of men to help himself.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000064>GandaIf The White</A> at: 6/25/01 4:20:06 pm

[Falmar]

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Re: the wizards

Can any of you language experts tell us what Pallando and Alatar mean? That might tell us a little bit about them.

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[noldo]

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Re: the wizards

From what I believe (I'm not an expert in Elvish and might not be getting anywhere with this, but...) Alatar propably means &quot;someone radiant&quot;. &quot;Palla&quot; I believe means something far-strecthing and wide. Broad-minded?

<font size=-1>"Nature could find a home here if it were properly cleansed and balanced."
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[Aldaron]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: The Blue Wizards

This discussion has been most interesting. It suggests to me that there is fertile ground for those with a creative writing bent to consider Alatar and Pallando, the blue wizards, and their story in eastern Middle Earth, living among the eastern population which has been suggested elsewhere to be similar to Mongols. Wide open country to create your own Middle Earth.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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Re: The Blue Wizards

Aldaron, see Gilthalion's Fan Fiction series &quot;The Hobbits&quot;. It's in the Fan Fiction section linked to our main page.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: The Blue Wizards

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
noldo said: Alatar propably means &quot;someone radiant&quot;.<hr></blockquote>

Im not sure but couldn't al-atar mean Tree - father?
alda = Tree + -atar= father - Also the was send by Oromë who was known as Aldaron


Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: The Blue Wizards

To come back to the old question when Saruman reached the point of no-return-evil, this Gandalf-quote about the Orthanc-palantír seems interesting:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses. Alas for Saruman! It was his downfall, as I now perceive. Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. Yet he must bear the blame. Fool! to keep it secret, for his own profit. No word did he ever speak of it to any of the Council. [....]. But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote. Very useful, no doubt, that was to Saruman; yet it seems that he was not content. Further and further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon Barad-dûr. Then he was caught! [...]ever since he has been persuaded from afar, and daunted when persuasion would not serve... (stresses mine) <hr></blockquote>
It must indeed have been, as pointed out far earlier by Underhill, the image of Barad-Dûr and Sauron's might in the palantír which led Saruman to malicious imitation of the Dark Lord. I just remembered this nice discussion when I came upon this quote lately.


<h6>'I will keep my heart from you / To keep you safe / I will wipe every tear / Of your frozen heart / I will always be there / Though from a distance / And though my heart shall bleed / My love shall never blacken.'</p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
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Re: The Blue Wizards

If we hold up that quote with Sauron getting in possesion of the Palantir in Baradur, the Saruman couldn't have come in contact before TA2950 - giving him less than 70 years to breed an army of 10.000 orcs/half-orcs...

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
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Re: The Blue Wizards

Good point, Telchar.
Although I guess this number can be reduced as a large part of Saruman's soldiers were 'volunteers' from Dúnland or the orc populations in the north.

<h6>'I will keep my heart from you / To keep you safe / I will wipe every tear / Of your frozen heart / I will always be there / Though from a distance / And though my heart shall bleed / My love shall never blacken.'</p>

[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
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Re: The Blue Wizards

Yes indeed Sharku. But if we count it as the time of his point of no return its still much later than the time I originally estimated...

We could say that one difference between the evil of Sauron and Saruman was that Saurons evil was founded on hatret of elves and men which caused the fall of his master, and Sarumans evil that was founded in Sarumans jealousy of Gandalf, which can be dated as far back as to Valinor.
Saruman was working his own evil slowly increasing it to the point where he turned the palantir towards Baradur - and then he was daunted and persauded... then there was no return - one question is: was he allready before that beyond help? and when did he first look in the stone - for instance where was the Ithil Stone in the years between the first Fall of Baradur and TA2950? - Did Sauron have it in Dol Guldur - it might be!!!

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>