The seven thains of Morgoth

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Morgoth had 7 Balrogs (as it said in the Silm). Glorfindel slew one, Ecthelion slew Gothmog, the war of wrath purged at least 3, and Gandalf killed one. But that leaves the wherabouts of the other one unknown. Knowing this, I believe it flew to a dark place it knew--Utumno's Ruins. And my theory is that this is why the Ithryn Luin did not return to the west to aid against Sauron. They met the terror in their journeys and fell, maybe taking it down, and only Saruman returned.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Saruman was not corrupted by that stage, that we know. So if what you say is true, then wouldn't he have reported it to the rest of the council? Maybe the seventh Balrog was destroyed in the War of Wrath. Maybe it was Sauron, who could shape-change then, in another form.

[Elrian]

The other Balrog could also have hid under one of the mountains in Beleriand before it sank.

[Thingol]

Where in the Silm does it say there were only 7? I thought I read somewhere that Tolkien originally said there were a whole bunch of Balrogs. It was my understanding Tolkien was still contemplating reducing the number of Balrogs and enhancing their power but died before he made any final descissions. I don't remember the Silm actually saying the number of Balrogs, can you provide a page number?

[Voronwe]

I think Tolkien said there were 'no more than seven' Balrogs in one of his Letters. This is indeed a big difference from earlier myths like Lost Tales, where there were literally hundreds of Balrogs.

-Voronwe

[Thingol]

There is a great, really long, discussion in the new Silm project that I was just reading. However, it doesn't really clear up the answer. It seems clear that Tolkien definatly wanted to limit the number of Balrogs and increase their power, he originally said there were more than a thousand Balrogs at the Fall of Gondolin. In the Silm it is ambiguous about the number of Balrogs in existance. Whenever I read it it feels like 50-100.

[Aiwendil]

In the Book of Lost Tales version of the mythology, there are 'balrogs a thousand'; these balrogs ride [mechanical] dragons and are slain by the dozen by the Elves. These are clearly very different from the later demonic, possibly winged, demons of fire and darkness. The balrog that appears in LotR is clearly much more powerful, but the 'hosts' of balrogs remained in the first drafts of the Quenta Silmarillion and Annals of Aman from the 1950s.

There is a passage in the Annals of Aman, concerning the Battle of the Powers, that says that 'a host of balrogs' came forth and were slain by Manwe. This was emended to 'the Balrogs, the last servants that remained to him [Melkor]', or something like that. There is also a marginal note here that says 'It should not be supposed that more than 3 or at most 7 ever existed'. This is the only reference to the number 7.

So it may be that only 7 balrogs ever existed. Or this may have merely been a passing idea, or perhaps even a mistake (there are several in his later writings). The number 3, his first suggestion clearly doesn't work (one slain by Ecthelion, one by Glorfindel, one by Gandalf, leaves none to have died in the War of Wrath), so perhaps the number 7 needs to be taken with a grain of salt as well. On the other hand, it's clear that the thousands of Balrogs would not have remained once they had taken on their later importance. The biggest problem with the number 7 (as I see it) is that it allows only three at most to have been killed in the Battle of the Powers.

This 'Balrog question' is currently the biggest stumbling block over at the Revised Silmarillion project. If anyone has any ideas or opinions on the subject, we'd love to hear them from you; as always, all are welcome to contribute.

[Cirdan the Shipwright]

Absolutely no place in the Sil does it give a number of Balrogs. Any other source info (other than maybe the Unfinished Tales) would be questionable information.

Everything seems to imply that there were a great many Balrogs, perhaps in the hundreds. Melkor seems to have corrputed the most Maia, most of these being fire spirits.

Although there is no basis for this, I always imagined that Melkor probably had as many Maiar as all of the other Valar put together. If each had 50-100 serving them, then Melkor could indeed have had about a thousand. Too bad the books are so vague.

-Cirdan / Maglor68

[obloquy]

See the post just above yours, Cirdan.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

still though, I seem to recall it saying that more than one balrog (Gandalf's Balrog) escaped the war of wrath and hid in the bowels of the earth. So, even if there were 50 or a thousand, there still could have been balrogs hidden in the east or near Utumno. I haven't read the lost tales, so I must have heard the number seven in Unfinished tales or The Silm, anyhow, it gives a reason for The Ithryn Luins disappearence.

[Fell Shade]

I'm somewhat confused. I had thought that the great powers diminished over the ages, until, by the third age, the great foe was a highly diminished Sauron(highly diminished because he did not have his ring, but diminished nonetheless.) His greatest foes, the istari, were diminished in form by choice. So, how did the balrogs become more powerful after such falls from power as occured before?

Perhaps I'm way off base here, I just thought the great powers at play in middle earth were much less in power than in past ages.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I wouldn't say that. Sauron's personal power was diminished, but the power of his will, and of his armies, was not. Those against him, however, were not united and in relative dissaray when it came to alliances etc.

Although there is no basis for this, I always imagined that Melkor probably had as many Maiar as all of the other Valar put together. If each had 50-100 serving them, then Melkor could indeed have had about a thousand. Too bad the books are so vague.

What's there to say that all of these Maiar under Morgoth were Balrogs? Sauron was one. The giant hound that Huan fought was another. Maiar could have been used to possess various pieces of machinery in his fortress, to captain his forces, and to guard.
It is only Maiar that naturally had fiery, powerful spirits that could become Balrogs. I also seem to remember seven original Balrogs somewhere -- I think it was in Unfinished Tales -- but also that three escaped from the war of wrath. One was slain by Gandalf. Perhaps Sauron had the other two under his service? Probably not, seeing as how they never emerged. The story about the other one slaying the Blue Wizards certainly fits, although if so, why didn't Saruman report it?

[Inziladun]

still though, I seem to recall it saying that more than one balrog (Gandalf's Balrog) escaped the war of wrath and hid in the bowels of the earth.

The Silmarillion says that in the War of Wrath

The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.

One of them obviously made it to the Misty Mountains. The rest could have been anywhere, remote places where they were never found, or far to the east and south of Northwest ME. In either case they would have been unknown to the writer of the stories, explaining why only the one in Moria is mentioned after the Fall of Angband.

[Aiwendil]

No, the note concerning 7 Balrogs is not in Unfinished Tales; it is in the Annals of Aman in Morgoth's Ring, HoMe X. The note states that 'it should not be supposed that more than 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'

It is nowhere stated that three Balrogs escaped from Thangorodrim (unless it be in the old 1930s material, but I don't remember any such specific detail). The passage in the published Silmarillion stating that 'some few' fled and hid in the earth derives from the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion, long before Balrogs had taken on their later significance, and before the 'host' was corrected to '3 or at most 7'.

[Carannillion]

Perhaps there were once lots of Balrogs, not very powerful, but later on Morgoth or Sauron sort of merged, say ten lesser Balrogs, into one mighty Balrog, thus making a whole new race, named after and based on the previous one, but a lot more powerful..?

(Please don't hit me if this is completely absurd.. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Thingol]

Carannillion, you are partially correct, but it was Tolkien that did the merging, not Morgoth. Tolkien spoke of spirits called Boldogs in Morgoth’s Ring that were of much lesser power than the Balrogs. It is conceivable that Tolkien desired to transform the many of the numerous Balrogs that he mentions in earlier works into Boldogs, leaving a few very powerful Balrogs; but he died before he could ever reconcile the problems arising from the numbers of Balrogs around. As for the numbers three or seven, three clearly does not work, it does not leave room for the one that Gandalf killed. As for seven Balrogs, this was merely a note scribbled in a margin by Chris Tolkien and can not really be considered a definite number. Tolkien clearly wished t decrease the number of Balrogs, but to me the number seven seems like too extreme a reduction. The newest Silmarillion makes it seem like there is a small host of Balrogs, perhaps 20-50 at most. However, that is just a feeling I get from reading the Silm, it does not say any specific number anywhere in the new Silm, I don’t know about the older one though, I have never read it. This topic is discussed in detail in the new Silm project.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[obloquy]

The '3 or at most 7' note was not CT's work, but JRRT's.

Three does work if we consider that Tolkien may have actually been toying with an idea that would leave only those three that we have specific accounts of: Gothmog, Glorfindel's Bane, and the Durin's Bane. He may have planned to implement this radical reduction at some point in the future. Perhaps all of the Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin (besides Gothmog and Glorfindel's Bane, and no doubt Durin's Bane, though he wasn't specifically mentioned), the Nirnaeth, the War of Wrath, and any other mentions, would have been replaced with Boldogs or Trolls.

[Thingol]

You are certainly correct obloquy, that there is a possibility of 7, but if there were only 3 then none would have been killed in the War of Wrath. I think that this is just one of those topics which is unclear and you have to decide for yourself, 50 just seems right to me.

[obloquy]

That's exactly my point, Thingol. Seven fits easily, but the mere fact that Tolkien suggests the number three tells us that he considered eliminating all occurrences of Balrogs except the three specifically named ones. The end result I think Tolkien was driving at was a kind of creature that had no match on the Free Peoples end. More powerful than Elves, virtually untouchable by Men. Trolls and Orcs were enough to cause trouble for an army of the Free Peoples, but groups of this kind of creature could have utterly ravaged even the largest army. I think it's very plausible that Tolkien, with the final conception of the Balrogs in mind, was playing with an idea that would completely eliminate Balrogs from the history, except for the three mightiest: Gothmog, Glorfindel's Bane, and Durin's Bane. Replace the rest with Trolls or Boldogs, as I said.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Aiwendil]

But what if we assume that the '3 or 7' note is from the same time as the correction to the Battle of the Powers passage in Morgoth's Ring (and all indications are that these were simultaneous changes)? Although he changed 'a host of Balrogs' to 'the Balrogs', he retained their being slain by Manwe. This is problematic. If he seriously considered reducing the number to 3, how can he have retained the idea that any were slain? Certainly re-embodiment can be ruled out in this case; the death of Gothmog is treated always as if it were quite final, and none of the characters suggest that Durin's bane might have been a re-embodiment.

Perhaps he meant to make them not be killed by Manwe? In this case, though, he surely would have made the relevant correction to the text. Quite puzzling.

[Thingol]

The 3 or 7 note comes from Chris Tolkien saying that his father said that perhaps no more than 3 or 7 ever existed. While it is extremely concievable that Tolkien wanted to limit the number of Balrogs to 3, it can never be actually known. However, I do not think we can easily disregard the quote in the Silm about Balrogs issuing forth to help Morgoth in the War of Wrath and being destroyed solely on the basis of that note. But like you said obloquy, noone can prove what the good professor was thinking about doing, we just have to go from what already exists.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

The number seven though, explains how there were enough to beat Ungoliant during Melkor's trauma, but not kill her. If indeed there were 20-50, wouldn't they have slaughtered her, I mean even if they ran, they went with winged speed. And legions of Balrogs could be interpreted as seven or so legions each led by a balrog, such as legion of Gothmog, legion of Durin's Bane, etc.... I just think that with that many of the balrogs, Morgoth would have reigned supreme easily.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

even if she ran, Ungoliant that is. If you take my meaning.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Also, it never mentioned if Saruman mentioned it to the council. He didn't mention a lot of things. Gandalf didn't want to speak of his duel, and as proud as Saruman was, it seems like one of those-beyond any of you-battles. Or maybe it watched him leave then attacked the others, it's all speculation anyway, but Saruman may not have known, or just may have known when to keep his entrancing mouth shut. Plus, it had no relevence to the war of the ring.

[obloquy]

You're right, Aiwendil. Which is why I think there is the note giving both 3 and 7 as plausible numbers. Thousands of such beings as Durin's Bane would have been wholly too much for any army to deal with.

Although the number three seems much too radically reduced, its mere being demands that we consider its implications. To me it is obvious that Tolkien was imagining a drastic change -- only in its primary stages of conception, mind you, so perhaps not solid enough for us to implement into the new Silmarillion project.

I think Tolkien began to envision Balrogs so powerful that any more than seven at the Fall of Gondolin, and any wars before, would have been implausible. Obviously, though, there can be no less than three. I personally believe (and I believe that I am agreeing with Tolkien's latest ideas) that the two numbers he gave (3 and 7) were the only quantities possible. More than about seven of the Durin's Bane breed would have thrown things too off balance, and less than three was impossible because of published material.

As for how the three named Balrogs reappeared later, I have theorized that the Battle of the Powers Balrogs were not yet (fully?) incarnate.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Thingol]

I don't see why more than 7 Balrogs would have to necessarily unbalance things. Ecthillion and Glorfindel both killed Balrogs even though they themselves perished. Granted Ecthellion and Glorfindel were 2 very powerful elves, but could they really withstand 50 or even 100 elves? Even if it were to take 50-100 elves per Balrog, 20-50 Balrogs could hardly have overcome all of the exiles. In addition why do we assume all the Balrogs participated in every battle, and isn't it reasonable to assume some of the Balrogs were killed in the battle where the Valar chained Melkor?

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[obloquy]

Ecthelion and Glorfindel were two of the mightiest elf-lords of the time, and Gandalf was the most powerful force in Middle-earth, save Sauron, at the time of his encounter with Durin's Bane. A duel between two powerhouses is different than general combat. I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of the Elven armies were nowhere near Ecthelion's and Glorfindel's prowess in battle. Not to mention all three (Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf) were slain at their confrontations, and Gothmog's death was almost accidental. Let us also never forget about Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, and, in my hypothetical revision, the Boldogs. If Morgoth had an army of tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of Orcs, and Trolls, with Boldogs intermixed as leaders and chieftains; and Dragons, some lesser, some greater, I can most definitely see a host of fifty Balrogs throwing everything in Morgoth's favor -- if it wasn't already. The later Balrogs were the greatest of Morgoth's servants. Quoth Legolas:

'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,...of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'

I don't think the kind of being we encounter in Moria is the kind you find in large numbers, and I believe that was Tolkien's intention with the note containing the tentative concept of 'no more than 3 or at most 7'. I contend that the note reflects the logical progression -- though it was never implemented -- of the Balrog's evolution. They started out in large numbers and weak, and were later developed into such powerful creatures that we should not suppose any more than '3 or 7 ever existed'.

[Yaish]

Just a hint as to the power of a Balrog, and a clue as to the relative number.

In the Sil, concerning the making of the Sun and the Moon it states that the Sun (Aren) will be drawn by Arien, who was "From the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn into his service". I take that to mean she was of the same type Maiar as the Balrogs. That he mentions she was one that was not deceived or drawn to Melkors service hints that there werent many that were not deceived by Melkor, and since he probably didnt deceive the majority of the Maia, then there cant have been many to begin with.
As to their power, Melkor assaulted Tilion, who drew the moon, but of Arien "Morgoth feared her with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed"
Sounds like at this point he didnt have the power to assault a Balrog and be sure of winning. Coming from the most powerful of the Valar, even with his diminished power thats quite something. I dont think Tolkien would have intended there to be many creatures with power near that of the Valar.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

And to bring up the fact that when Ungoliant attacked their master, the whole of them came (it said something like, "and out from Angband came the balrogs), and if there were more then seven, Ungoliant wouldn't have had time to flee, since they went with winged speed, probably faster than the spider, and would have probably gone after her if they had power enough. So it is easy to see a small number of ultimate creatures, which almost never faltered, leading Morgoth's hosts. Seven, with lesser demons not unlike your Boldogs under their control. After all, we know Balrogs weren't the only maiar under Morgoth's control, he had Sauron and the Fell Rider who took elves in the darkness (of whom the light of Anor (like gandalf) shone in his dreadful eyes.)

[obloquy]

Well, I've come up with a new theory to cover for my egregious mistake regarding the Battle of the Powers and the War of Wrath (which I have corrected by editing my posts, so don't look for it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

As we know, Balrogs were killed. This, as I have argued very recently in another topic, tells us that they were incarnate rather than simply clothed. But why were they incarnate? The Ainur would become more and more bound to their physical forms as they enjoyed the pleasures available to material beings. The most binding of these being eating and begetting. I suggested the following in another thread:

By way of speculation, consider this: The Balrogs don't seem to be able to change their shape or abandon their physical forms. Why? Perhaps Morgoth gave them the women-folk of Men (or Elves, for that matter), and allowed them to "take them". They would have been more and more bound to their forms, and Morgoth would have been given warriors with the potent blood of a Maia running through their veins

This is a possibility, but a convenient little side point is the fact that at the time of the Battle of the Powers (at which all Balrogs were supposedly withered) Men had not yet come into the scene. So is it possible that before these Balrogs began partaking of the gifts incarnates enjoyed (reminiscent of the Bible account of the origin of the demons) they were capable of existing separate from their bodies?

I believe so. This means that following the Battle of the Powers, the Balrogs that were withered could have formed new bodies for themselves to await Morgoth's return. Later, when Morgoth was back in action, they gradually became incarnates (as Morgoth himself did) and were therefore able to be utterly killed.

It may be mostly speculation, and as such does not help the new Silm project much, but it handily explains the AAm note of '3 or 7'. I'd also say it seems a very reasonable possibility, particularly when one considers how much it resembles Biblical events.

[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Thingol]

You made the same mistake again Obloquy. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] There were men around during the War of Wrath, which is the final battle of the First Age. Men had not come into the scene at the time of the Battle of Powers, which was the battle that destroyed Utumno and resulted in the chaining of Melkor, after the Elves had just awoken. Where does it say that all the Balrogs were withered during the Battle of Powers, assuming you meant to say the Battle of Powers? That little theory about the Balrogs taking Elf maidens is interesting though. I believe you are correct in assuming that the Balrogs might not have been incarnate at the time of the Battle of Powers, however it is only speculation. I still think that there were more than 7 Balrogs though. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[obloquy]

Well, this time the mistake isn't as bad, because I just transposed the names of the two battles. Just switch the two names and it works (I've edited the post now). The Annals of Aman tells us of the withering of the Balrogs, and it's this text that contains the Note. It's the War of Wrath that contains no mention of withered Balrogs.
Apologies. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sorry to get back to you so late on this, I didn't even notice you had replied to it.

[obloquy]

Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

Myths Transformed

I just found this little bit. It seems to lend at least some support to my theory!

[Mhoram]

It would help to know what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about Balrogs wouldn't it?

I suggest this. Gather all his writings about Balrogs and date them as to when they were written.

For all that was written after the writing of LOTR we would know what he had in mind as a Balrog, based on the nice account of Durin's Bane in LOTR.

What was written pre-LOTR would have been in a time before he was sure of the power and thereby the number of Balrogs.

I think this would help in figuring out what Tolkien had in mind.

Don't forget that The Fall of Gondolin was among the first that Tolkien wrote, long before LOTR.

[doug*platypus]

The Ambition of Balrogs

Keeper, it's an interesting theory you have, but I don't believe that any Balrogs save Durin's Bane would have survived up to the time of the War of the Ring. Obloquy has made a very convincing argument that the post LOTR superBalrogs should have been the definitive version. It's possible that one fled to the east and was subsequently slain, but it seems inconceivable that Saruman would have known of it. I think the Ithryn Luin suffered a different fate.

The Balrog of Moria had, unless I am mistaken in my reading of the situation, assumed control of the Orcs of Moria, daunting them by the use of fear, as Sauron and Morgoth would have done. I think that any Balrog surviving in the east or any other hiding place would have seeked out similar power. My understanding of Balrogs is that they are ambitious creatures like Sauron, and desire an army to serve their nefarious purposes, whatever they may be. It is unclear whether such a Balrog, with its own army in the east, would be compelled to seek out and join with Sauron, or whether it would further its own ends and a kingdom of its own. I think that some report would have been made of it, though, and also that Gandalf's task could hardly have been considered over if there was a Balrog unfought somewhere in Middle-Earth. Iluvatar, who we suppose sent Gandalf the White back, would certainly have known of the existence of such a creature.

I don't see why more than 7 Balrogs would have to necessarily unbalance things. Ecthillion and Glorfindel both killed Balrogs even though they themselves perished. Granted Ecthellion and Glorfindel were 2 very powerful elves, but could they really withstand 50 or even 100 elves?

For reasons I'm not too sure of, destruction of such Evil Heroes is always by single combat. Sauron is defeated by Elendil and Gil-Galad, while Isildur and Círdan can do nothing but watch. Tulkas wrestles Melkor on his own, when he could have more easily been subdued by sevaral Valar. And of course, Glorfindel and Ecthelion never require aid. I think it's safe to say that only a great Hero could have destroyed a Balrog, and that Tolkien would not have wanted a loose end of Balrogs roaming freely anywhere in Middle-Earth with no plausible way for them to be destroyed.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Not even hundreds, Voronwe, THOUSANDS. A host were said to have assailed Manwe, whilst dozens were killed in the 'Fall of Gondolin'

[Olorin_TLA]

One thing: in the note where Tolkien decides there were only 7 Balrogs at the most probably, the refernece to Glorfindel's duel has the word "Balrog" crossed out and replaced, immediately, with "Demon", and the next (and last reference) to the duel also says "Demon", NOT "Balrog" - yet the note refers to 7 (max) Balrogs, not Demons.

Coupled with the post-LotR conception of Balorgs being VERY, VERY much more powerful than thier pre-LotR counterparts, it appears that these 7 Balrogs are as powerful as Durin's Bane (Gothmog being more so likely) (Durin's Bane decimated Moria, single-handedly...somehting the pre-LotR Balorgs probably couldn;t have done) , and therefore that Glorfindel fights a Demon isntead, as a Balrog would be tto storng possibly for him.

So more than 7 Balorgs of the psot-LotR type (which they would of course have to be now) , especially these armies of them in the pre-LotR texts, would probablky have annihalted everyone very, very quickly. Times were black enough without thousnads of the Demons of Might!