Ungoliantes spawn?

[the guy who be short]

I did a quick search and found no threads on this. Here goes:
Ungoliant was the only spider, right? So how did she have children? Was there a lesser male spider we dont know about? Could she fertilise herself? Was Melkor their father [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ?
How did she have children?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Why do you say that Ungoliant was the only spider? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I have always thought that the case for spiders was the same than that for eagles: there were the Great eagles, and normal eagles; and in the same way there was Ungoliant and lesser spiders. Ungoliant's spawn was the result of her union with these normal spiders [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (In fact, I remember having read this in any place, but now I can't remember where ...)

EDIT:
I have found it! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

and fleeing from the north she [Ungoliant] went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them;
Of the Flight of the Noldor; The Silmarillion

[ June 15, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[the guy who be short]

Many thanks. So Morgoth made these other spiders. But how and why did he make them? Did he make them so that they would purposefuly mate with Ungoliante? Did he want an army of Spiders?
Also, that would mean not all spiders are the spawn of Ungoliant, because the other spiders would mate with each other.
Oh, I'm so confused!
How would Morgoth know about the mating system of Ungoliant? And why would Ungoliant have a mating system when, before Melkor made others, she was the only spider?
Ungoliante spawns many questions indeed.

Ungolianth maybe was the only giant spider. Morgoth created the other spiders to breed new spiders. I don't think that he wanted to build up an army of spiders, but maybe just a few creatures on his side.
I think that Shelob (think how old she was!) was a direct descendant of Ungolianth, so she has to propagate herself.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Actually, it doesn't say that Morgoth created said spiders. Read it again.

[Finwe]

Remember, Morgoth couldn't create, he could only corrupt. He didn't create Ungoliant. She was probably another evil Maia that chose to take the form of a Great Spider. As for all the other ones, spiders were probably corrupted from some other creature.

[Helkahothion]

Maybe those creatures where made by Ungoliant herself. So that she could spread her evil seed around the world and try to defy Morgoth. Remember, she tried to kill him once. Maybe she was breeding an army of her own, but seeing the nature of the spiders, they did not accept her leadership and scattered all over Beleriand.

Suilad,

Anuion

[Mahal]

No...I think not because even Morgoth could not create and I also think that Ungoliant is a maia. I think Spiders were introduced by the music of the Ainur remember other creatures were also around before the rise of the elves.

[Helkahothion]

But as a Maya, she could corrupt. Sauron also did it. So the spiders could be for Ungoliant what the Orcs where for Sauron and Melkor.

Suilad,

Anuion

[the guy who be short]

Ok, since the delving of Angband. So maybe spiders lived deep down in the earth?
Whywould the Ainur create spiders? Unless it was one of Morgoths themes, or else he mutilated insects. But theyd have to be giant insects. Oh, Im confusing myself again.

[Finwe]

I don't think that the Ainur purposefully created the spiders. As I said before, they were most likely creatures that Morgoth twisted from something else. Or, they could also have been lesser, but still evil, Maiar that also chose to take the form of spiders just like Ungoliantë.

[the guy who be short]

Do we know that Ungoliante is a Maia? If so, where is it stated?

[Finwe]

I think it's in the Silmarillion. If not, then it's in HoMe or UT. One of those three definitely contains it. If not, then check Encyclopedia of Arda. It has all the info. that you'll need.

[The X Phial]

Ungoliant didn't need to create spiders, and it specifically says they had been dwelling there a long time. No one really knows (remember, this is an elf history, not some omniscient account) where Ungoliant came from originally, only that she was dark and strong, especially when gorged on light. The above quote seems self-explanatory to me. Ungoliant went into hiding, she found other spiders...no need to make some elaborate History of the Spider Creation.

Tolkien also mentions werewolves and regular wolves. Are you implying now that all wolves had to have been created by Melkor or the werewolves?

[Finwe]

Actually, Morgoth could have just bred and corrupted the original "nice" wolves to come up with the werewolves. He has a long history of doing things like that. The original wolves could have been created by Oromë, since they are hunters like him.

[The X Phial]

Ok, the wolf example was just to point out that there are a lot species in Middle-earth. Not all of them are corrupted maia or anything else. Some animals, like spiders, could simply have been spiders.

[Bêthberry]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. -- Freud

[Finwe]

That's true. Perhaps we've all been over-analyzing this.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

There are some threads that deal with the nature of Ungoliant (ainu, spirit, ...) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] like these ones:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000447

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001827

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001781


Hope it helps ! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

In addition to those threads, you should read uh.. wots a maiar ???/.

I think it's in the Silmarillion. If not, then it's in HoMe or UT. One of those three definitely contains it. If not, then check Encyclopedia of Arda. It has all the info. that you'll need.

No, nowhere is it stated or otherwise implied that we should view Ungoliant as a Maia. This is sort of an age-old question - if Tolkien actually said it somewhere, it would've been cleared up a long time ago. She might've been an Ainu, but that doesn't mean she's a Maia. 'Maiar' is not a race - it's a group of Ainu with the specific task of assisting the Valar.

[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Helkahothion]

'Maiar' is not a race - it's a group of Ainu with the specific task of assisting the Valar.

Really? By quicky, I did not knew that. Thanks Legolas. But if she was not, where would she get the strength, to nearly kill Melkor?

Suilad,

Anuion

[Mahal]

She got strenghtend by light she took out of the air Absorbed(or something like that dunno how its in English). And she ate the gems from Morgoth that strenghtend her also(or so i thought i dunno for sure though).

[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: Mahal ]