Sils and Morgoth

[Phil The Balrog]

Couple quickies, where are the Sils and Morgoth during the third age, during LotR time? Is Morgoth trapped out in the void or was he killed, if a Valar can be killed? If he's out in the void, thats interesting because Ungoliant was thought to have come from the void, so he could be corrupting other worlds out there... And what happened to the silmarils? were they important because they were made of the light from the trees or for some other reason? did they bestow any power?

[Elrian]

Melkor was cast out of Ea into th void. Of the Silmarils, One is bound to Earendil's brow, one Maglor threw into the ocean, the other Maedhros cast himself into a fiery abyss with.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Is Morgoth trapped out in the void or was he killed, if a Valar can be killed?

Morgoth's in the void during the Third Age, having been banished there by the other Valar. I don't think it's possible for anyone other than Eru to kill a Vala.

Were [the Silmarils] important because they were made of the light from the trees or for some other reason? did they bestow any power?

The Silmarils are important because they are the only objects that still contain the light of the Two Trees, whence come any other qualities they possess. They're also Feanor's master work and never to be equalled even by him, which explains their value. They don't confer power, but they do have certain inherent powers of preservation and destruction, as we see in the story of Beren and Luthien.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Carannillion]

Also, Melkor is not corrupting other worlds. The only world Ilúvatar made was Eä, and besides, the Void is the place outside the world. The source of creation is the Flame Imperishable, which lies in the core of ME.

Melkor is 'wandering' lost and lonely in the Void, with absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Scary thought, isn't it?
He will stay there until the end of the world, when all shall join Ilúvatar.

However, it is said in the Ainulindalë that Melkor often ventured into the Void, seeking the Flame Imperishable. If any other of the Ainur - the ones who stayed with Ilúvatar - has also ventured into the Void (for reasons I cannot guess, as Ilúvatar said himself that the Flame Imperishable now lies in the core of ME), it is possible, however unlikely, that Melkor has had a chance meeting with them.

[Tar Elenion]

Morgoth was executed and then cast out into the Void.

Ea is the universe. The Void that Melkor was cast out into seems to actually refer to his 'extrusion' from Arda (the Solar System) as the Kingdom of Manwe, and into the vastness of interstellar space.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Elrian]

He was executed? He was only cast into the void. Valar can't be killed. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Voronwe]

I believe Tar Elenion is referring to Myths Transformed (HoME X), where Morgoth was indeed executed by Manwe and Mandos. Whether one chooses to accept this as fact is a matter of opinnion.

-Voronwe

[Tar Elenion]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>He was executed? He was only cast into the void. Valar can't be killed. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]</STRONG>

_Morgoth_ was executed. Melkor in his physical form was Morgoth and this form was executed. Melkor (as a spirit) was then cast out into the Void. The Void in this sense is referring to interstellar space outside the Solar System (see Morgoth's Ring pg 403).

[obloquy]

I don't recall ever reading that the Valar cannot be destroyed. Could you point me in the right direction, Elrian?

I do recall, however, that actually destroying Melkor would have been catastrophic (apocalyptic?) because his essence was present and bound up in nearly every created thing.

[Carannillion]

I don't recall ever reading that the Valar cannot be destroyed. Could you point me in the right direction, Elrian?
I do recall, however, that actually destroying Melkor would have been catastrophic (apocalyptic?) because his essence was present and bound up in nearly every created thing.

Can you destroy another person? Can you destroy anything? Killing is one thing, but destroying is another.

Ilúvatar did say something about how all things are boud to the Music, and the things of Arda shall dwell there until the end of Arda. Then, Ilúvatar shall unmake Arda, and all his children (creations, stuff etc.) shall join him for a new purpouse or something, which only Ilúvatar himself knows.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by obloquy:
<STRONG>I don't recall ever reading that the Valar cannot be destroyed. Could you point me in the right direction, Elrian?

I do recall, however, that actually destroying Melkor would have been catastrophic (apocalyptic?) because his essence was present and bound up in nearly every created thing.</STRONG>

In the Silmarillion they are called Deathless:

In that guarded landthe Valar gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many other yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there and naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land,nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.

For it is not the land of Manwethat makes it's people deathless, but the Deathless that dwek=ll therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.

And the Numenoreans answered: Why should we not envy the valar, or even the least of the Deathless?

For a wind arose in the east and it wafted them away; and they broke the Ban of the Valar, and sailed into forbidden seas, going up with war against the Deathless, to wrest from them everlasting life within the Circles of the World.

[obloquy]

Durin was also called "Deathless".

I don't think the title means they can't be killed.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Durin was also called "Deathless"

The Durins were called "deathless", but the text makes it quite clear that this was due to a combination of a number of consecutive kings in Khazad Dum having the same name and ignorance outside. The Valar are referred to as "deathless" in the narrative. Also if the Valar could kill each other then I'm sure that Morgoth would have tried it at some point.

The Silmarillion is quite clear on the subject of Morgoth: he was cast beyond the circles of the world, not killed.

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Carannillion]

Yes, but as Tar Elenion said, *Morgoth* - Melkor's physical form at Arda - was killed. Melkor was expelled, cast into the Void, to wait there until the day when all creatures, mortals and immortals, shall return to Ilúvatar.

[Elrian]

Morgoth wasn't the name of his physical form it was the name the Elves gave him: Morgoth Bauglir. The Valar were beings of spirit that took form, or in Ulmo's case only did so occasionally. In the Sil it says of Melian that she dropped her form and fled Middle-earth, Ulmo is mentioned as only occassionally taking form, their form/Fana is not the same as our physical being.

Like someone said above the content of the HoMe's is a matter of opinion. It's hard to believe from what is written of Manwe in the Sil, that he would execute anything.

[Carannillion]

I know, I just thought fit, somehow. I can agree with you on that it's hardto picture Manwë executing anything, but... Anyway, Melkor was expelled, and that's the final result which probably was for the best.

Heeeeeey... Wait a minute. Why execute Melkor's physical form if he was to be expelled anyway?

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Carannillion ]

[obloquy]

Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

- Myths Transformed

Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.

- Myths Transformed

Morgoth's staying 'at home' has, as described above, quite a different reason: his fear of being killed or even hurt...

- Myths Transformed

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently.

- Myths Transformed

Morgoth could be killed, and was. At the time he was killed, he had become an incarnate, not merely "clothed".

Where is it that people get this notion that the History of Middle-earth series is less reliable than the published Silmarillion? It's absurd. The published Silmarillion was compiled (and liberally edited) from the materials that are contained unedited in the HoMe series. The published Silmarillion is not the official J.R.R. Tolkien Silmarillion. The material in HoMe is even more reliable than the published Silmarillion because we can differentiate clearly what is Christopher Tolkien, and what is J.R.R.

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Voronwe]

Being killed, in this case, refers to the destruction of the body, or physical form. It has nothing to do with the destruction of the spirit. (in fact, I think Tolkien once said that he believed the spirits of created beings were completely indestructible, though I might be wrong on this)

The Valar could all, in the beginning, take on any physical form at will. Melkor lost this ability because he let so much of his power pass into corrupting the matter of Arda. He became stuck in one body, which is why being killed (assuming he was) was so damaging for him, as his spirit was left houseless and significantly weakened.

I tend to agree that Tolkien's latest writings in HoME are a better guide to his intentions than the published Silmarillion. However, I think it really comes down to a matter of choice whether one accepts the published Silmarillion as fact, or delves into HoME and all the 'Canon' issues it entails. Arguments over whether Morgoth was killed and similar issues won't really get anywhere, if the two sides are arguing from different premises. At best one can merely claim that Tolkien's writings in HoME were his last opinion on the subject, which he might have changed again later.

-Voronwë

[Carannillion]

Originally posted by Voronwe:

The Valar could all, in the beginning, take on any physical form at will. Melkor lost this ability because he let so much of his power pass into corrupting the matter of Arda. He became stuck in one body, which is why being killed (assuming he was) was so damaging for him, as his spirit was left houseless and significantly weakened.

Isn't that sort of like Sauron during the War of the Ring? He was not able to take up physical form - yet - because he was not powerful enough - again, yet. Destroying the ring completely sort of killed Sauron (his incarnation) in the same way as Morgoth?

[Tar Elenion]

Obloquy,
Thank you. You saved me some typing there.

[Elenhin]

Carannilion: Sauron did have a physical form during the War of the Ring (the movie got this wrong). He lost it permanently only after the Ring had been destroyed.

[Carannillion]

Huh? I admit to not having read the book for a while, but I thought he was just a spirit, appearing to people as that lidless, flaming eye? The eye representing the direction of the spirit's attention. When does he appear physically?

[Tar Elenion]

"Sauron should be thought of as as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance."

Letter 246.

[Kuruharan]

Aside from the quote from the Letters there are some places in the books themselves where it's indicated that Sauron had a physical form.
When Pippin looked into the palantir "he" appeared, and I've always taken "he" to mean Sauron.
When Shagrat and Gorbag were talking in the underway Shagrat makes the comment that the prisoner is to be kept safe until "He sends or comes Himself." The way that is said always made me think that Sauron had a physical form that he was moving about in.
And finally Gollum, who would know better than any of the other main characters, because he was the only one of the main characters who went to the Barad-dur, said, "Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough."
That particular passage also brings up an interesting question about wounds inflicted on one of His physical forms being carried over to later physical forms.
Hope this clears up any confusion.

[Thingol]

Good point Kuruharan, Tolkien stated that when the Fea reconstructs its hora it must reconstruct an hora similar to its original state. From the evidence you pointed out it is reasonable to assume the same is true of Maiar. As for the History of Middle Earth series as being even more reliable than the Silm, that is a matter of opinion. While the HoME series contains some of Tolkien’s most recent thoughts on certain matters it also contains some outdated material (perfect example being The Fall of Gondolin). Just because certain ideas were Tolkien’s latest opinions doesn’t mean that he would have changed things he had already envisioned, even if nothing was published at this time. The reason that the Silm is so truncated is because Chris Tolkien only put in it what he felt J.R.R. Tolkien was sure about keeping and excluded anything that his father was still unsure about (an example being the exclusion of a detailed account of the Fall of Gondolin). The rest of the information that was available to Chris Tolkien but wasn’t included in the Silm is in the HoME series. I have only finished one and a half volumes of the HoME series, so my opinion might change, but so far I tend to view the Silm as more reliable than the HoME series because I feel that Chris Tolkien knew his father’s wishes best, and only included what he felt his father was sure about. By sifting through the myriad of Tolkien’s material in the HoME series I believe that one can make educated guesses on what Tolkien would have included in a finished Silmarillion if he had lived long enough to make one. The new Silm project is trying to do just that; create a completed Silmarillion based on logical conclusions taken from material in the HoME series and other sources. However, I do not believe that anything in the HoME series can be included as “cannon” above the published Silmarillion. Again I haven't read the entire series so my opinion might change as I gain more insight into the mind of Tolkien.
But for now I remain a steadfast Silm fan.

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Thingol]

because we can differentiate clearly what is Christopher Tolkien, and what is J.R.R.

I was under the impression that it was all Tolkien, J.R.R. Tolkien that is. Did Christopher Tolkien ever include his own original works into his "Middle Earth work", for lack of a better term? I always thought that Chris Tolkien merely published commentary on notes and such that his father had not published/completed in addition to the actual uncomplete/unpublished works. If this is not the case and Chris Tolkien included his own material in the published Silmarillion and other works then I might have to rethink my opinion stated in the above post.

[obloquy]

Christopher Tolkien bridged some gaps when he compiled the published Silmarillion. The extant Silmarillion texts contain a vast amount of inconsistencies, and for the published version Christopher edited it to be as coherent as possible. He has said (in I believe more than one place) that he would have done the Silmarillion differently today.

The HoMe series contains all of the materials that CT had at his disposal when patching together the '77 Silmarillion. It is basically everything included in '77 and a whole lot more. It is for this reason that I say the series is more reliable than the '77. He naturally rejected the new ideas of later texts (such as Myths Transformed) because including them would have required much creative writing on his part; much more than he was willing to do (not out of laziness, but rather out of respect for his father's work). These are authentic Tolkien writings, and we cannot for any reason view them as less 'true' than, say, the Quenta Silmarillion. The only difference is that a lot of the newer concepts exist in the form of essays rather than narrative.

I honestly still can't see how anyone could say that the '77 Silmarillion is more reliable than these volumes that contain all of the original texts. Tolkien himself never published any of the Silmarillion. How can any part of that incomplete, unpublished work be more 'canon' than any other, save when it possibly reflects Tolkien's later, more refined concepts? It is all equally incomplete, and was all (as far as we can say) equally unacceptable for publication to Tolkien.

Of course, you can choose to accept or reject whatever you like, since we have no idea what would have been modified before the Silmarillion was published. Please realize, however, that there is not necessarily just one factual answer to a lot of Middle-earth questions, and it is only logical to accept the latest concepts as the most valid.

[Mithadan]

Since this is a common misconception, I will attempt to clarify. After JRRT died in 1973, his son gathered his papers and attempted to place them in a degree of order so that he knew what was most recent and what was an earlier, possibly rejected, draft. He did this quickly and the Sil was published in 1977.

While Christopher was familiar with the stories and materials in general, he made some errors in dating materials, ran into inconsistencies and pieces of storyline which lacked detail or did not exist. An example of the latter is the fall of Doriath for which there was almost no detailed or revised material; CT wrote that portion himself based upon what he believed his father intended.

After the Sil was published, CT began a more detailed and leisurely review of his father's papers and found information which he had missed as well as material which he misdated, using earlier drafts in the Sil rather than later. As a result, the published Sil is CT's edited version of his father's writings based upon his views as of 1973-1977 of what his father intended. As time progressed, and the HoME volumes were prepared CT realized he had made a number of errors and omissions in the Sil. So the Sil does not represent what JRRT intended to publish, at least as a whole. However, it is difficult to distinguish what JRRT actually intended from where JRRT was tinkering, speculating or experimenting with the tale from the HoME volumes. Thus our "Canon/New Silmarillion" forum.