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01-23-2002, 06:08 PM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Naming the Nazgul
Decipher and Mithril have named the nazgul.
Decipher goes by their titles and rank for Sauron, whilst Mithril created a background so here, for as close as I can tell, is the matchups in rank for Mithril The Witch King, Black Numenorean Ulaire Attea=Khamul the Shadow, keeper of Dol Goldur. Ulaire Cantea=Adunaphel, Rhovannion? Ulaire Enquea=Akhorahil, Black Numenorean Ulaire Lemenya=Hoarmurath, Black Numenorean Ulaire Nelya=Ren the Unclean, Rhunlander? Ulaire Nertea=Uvatha the Horseman, Variag Ulaire Ostea=Dwar of ???, Easterling Ulaire Toldea=Indur Dawndeath, Haradrim The only problem is the actual Mithril names, it really takes away the sense of shady origins and mystery from them. Oh well, if you have any questions, comments, feel free to ask.
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"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
01-23-2002, 07:45 PM | #2 |
Wight
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Hmph! I don't think Decipher has the right ot name the Nazgul. Tolkien intended for the Nazgul to remain unnamed yet some company did it so they could make more money. Humph!
Tee-Hee! I like being grumpy. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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01-23-2002, 08:24 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Decipher's Nazgul remain unnamed. They are merely given titles to distinguish one from the other for game mechanics purposes. Their "names" are simply Quenya translations of "2nd Ringwraith", "3rd Ringwraith", etc. In case you're curious, Decipher's Nazgul are numbered as follows: Ulaire Attea (Atta = 2); Ulaire Nelya (Nelde = 3); Ulaire Cantea (Canta = 4); Ulaire Lemenya (Lempe = 5); Ulaire Enquea (Enque = 6); Ulaire Ostea (sic. Probably a mistake on Decipher's part) (Otso = 7); Ulaire Toldea (Tolto = 8); Ulaire Nertea (Nerte = 9).
They did give each Nazgul an additional title, such as "Lieutenant of Morgul" or "Messenger of Dol Guldur", but they all conincide with Tolkien's writings. [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ] |
01-24-2002, 02:52 PM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Exactly, and Khamul is Ulaire Attea, Keeper of Dol Goldur, but I think since both Mithril and the Middle Earth trading card game call them by names, they needed to be matched up. I still think the names are a mistake though, and that Decipher did right by naming and ranking them with number 1, etc...
I can just see Sauron now "Shall I fortify Dol Goldur, master?" Khamul. "Make it so number one," Sauron.
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"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
01-24-2002, 02:53 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Exactly, and Khamul is Ulaire Attea, Keeper of Dol Goldur, but I think since both Mithril and the Middle Earth trading card game call them by names, they needed to be matched up. I still think the names are a mistake though, and that Decipher did right by naming and ranking them with number 1, etc...
I can just see Sauron now "Shall I fortify Dol Goldur, master?" Khamul. "Make it so number one," Sauron.
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"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
02-07-2002, 01:12 AM | #6 | |
Dead Man of Dunharrow
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Quote:
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02-07-2002, 04:42 AM | #7 | |
Spectre of Decay
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Quote:
*British nickname for William Joyce, expatriate Briton and Nazi radio propagandist later captured and hanged for treason.
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06-15-2003, 03:58 PM | #8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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06-15-2003, 04:27 PM | #9 |
Wight
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Everybody seems to be confused a little by the Ulaire Ostea. On the original card made by Decipher it spelled Ostea. They realized they made a mistake and corrected it in the Realms of the Elf Lord expansion. The typo that is on the card from the Fellowship is Ulaire Ostea. The correction was Ulaire Otsea.
I hope this may have cleared things up a bit.
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06-15-2003, 09:40 PM | #10 |
Deathless Sun
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I prefer not to consider those names as the accurate names of the Nazgul. Tolkien didn't intend them to be named, because, as the ancient Egyptians and the Dwarves believed, there is a lot of power in a name. We also fear what we don't know. If we don't know someone's name, and therefore cannot pinpoint their identity, we fear them all the more. Tolkien wanted the Nazgul to be creatures of pure fear, and not giving them names accomplished just that.
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06-15-2003, 10:19 PM | #11 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
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The card company (and people who realize what the names mean) don't even intend them as names. They're just titles so that the Nazgul cards can be separately referred to by players as Nazgul 1, Nazgul 2, etc.
[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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06-16-2003, 10:32 AM | #12 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I think the Encyclopedia of Arda is quite wrong when they say that, for instance, there is little harm in thinking that the name Murezor was the Witch-king's name. Maybe if Tolkien simply forgot to mention his real name, but all signs indicate that it is with intention that Tolkien never tells us his, or the other Nazgul (minus Khamul, and even that is outside the primary canon). It would be similar to trying to create an original name for the Mouth of Sauron, whose name is explicitly forgotten for the reason that he had no longer any individual identity in his service to Sauron.
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06-16-2003, 11:24 AM | #13 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2002
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So, they should be considered facts? I don't think so - they aren't made by Tolkien, therefore they can't be facts. Fanfics aren't usually(=never) considered true(well, with the exception of the Fall of Gondolin :P), and these names are just fan fiction.
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06-16-2003, 02:34 PM | #14 | |
A Northern Soul
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Quote:
[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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06-16-2003, 03:42 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Fall of Gondolin is fanfic?
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06-16-2003, 06:04 PM | #16 |
Hungry Ghoul
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,719
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Wasn't it the Fall of Doriath which, in the 77 Silmarillion, was largely written on the spot by CJRT and his co-author and might thus be considered merely good fanfic?
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06-16-2003, 08:27 PM | #17 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 72
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neither the "Fall of Gondolin" nor the "Fall of Doriath" are really fanfics, though they are also not JRR's work really at all. They are more like narratives written by Christopher based entirely off of what JRR had written, but having to be an entirely new text because what Christopher had to work with was either Old (BoLT "Fall of Gondolin) half-done, or fragmented and non-narrative. In these cases, the background texts could not by themselves be considered authoritative like the texts used to make some of the earlier Silmarillion chapter, and the only way to make a chapter with their stories was essentially for Christopher to do what he did.
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"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure." |
06-17-2003, 05:20 AM | #18 | |
King's Writer
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Posted by Wersterly Wizard:
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Respectfully Findegil P.S.: Since it created some confusion: All that I wrote in this post is meant for the chapters of "The Silmarillion" as published by Christopher Tolkien (the '77 and 2000 editions are the same in these points). [ June 18, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ] |
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06-17-2003, 01:17 PM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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So you mean the chapter within the '77. You ought to make that distinction next time.
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