***Round Earth Poll/Vote for Revised Ainulindale*** - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HerenIstarion · 01-17-2003, 02:37 AM

The poll is also posted in the member only forum above, but I think the information as for vox populi would be also of assistance:

Here we go:

A) Round Earth version should be used

Consequences :

+ we will keep the revised version in accordance with J.R.R.T's latest vision
- insurmountable discord with the whole bulk of later (by book chronology) stories will arise

B) Flat Earth version should be used, with the special proviso "thus was known to men" indicating that Eldar of Valinor knew thing as it was, but mannish tradition stuck to Sun and Moon as to leaves of Trees but not as to actual planet and star

Consequences:

+ more or less as above, as
- it will make the whole thing less "true". Special indication of the kind may eliminate the feeling of monolith Silmarillion always bore to me (and as far as I know many beside me) Some parts of it will be inconsistent with others

C) Flat Earth version should be used, as for Round earth and Sun and Moon, no mention of Arda as Solar System and so forth should be made

Consequences:

+ Greater consistency with the rest of the stories
- Discord with the latest vision of J.R.R.T

If I missed any other possibility or ommitted any consequence, pray feel free to add it up in series, or comments, as you find it convenient

Findegil · 01-17-2003, 07:17 AM

I am not am member but that doesn't matter here.

A is nearest to my hart, but for the projekt it would mean to end up with no more the short summary or "fan-fic" in grat parts.

I personaly would evoid C. The plan of the projekt looks for me as to provide a single source of most relisble but nice to read information about Tolkiens-World. But the reliabilty will suffer graetly if you don't mention the latest idea of Tolkien for his univers.

So it seems to me clear that B is the way the project has to go.

Yust my two cent which are not realy of any worth here.

Respectfully
Findegil

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-17-2003, 09:33 AM

I would go with a), but the workload and the arguemnts would seem, especially at the slowish rate we are a bit too much. Ah, well there's my vote for A).

**lindil** · 01-17-2003, 09:58 AM

Even though this was decided long ago [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] , I applaud you H-I for taking the bull by the horns!

Actually this current vote shows the shortcomings of our 'system' of editing very nicely, but let us see if we can continue to make progress without devoting weeks or months to creating an elaborate and complex power/decision/voting structure.

I vote for C, also, is there conclusive proof that JRRT stayed with the MT version?

JRRT: artist and illustrator has a picture of taniquetil in it where in there is someaspect of the sun [ I do not recall what anymore, that led Saulotus and I who were examining it - to be less than positive as to it's 'MTness']It was a very late picture also, mid 60's at the earliest as I recall.

Anyway if someone really wants A or B they should also propose how to deal with the manifold issues it raises.

As has been noticed, JRRT left some sketches and outlines as to how to implement some of the changes, but they are nowhere near enough to truly doctor the early part of the Silm.

Also A and to lesser degree B would violate the very working principles we have agreed upon. Every member should be fully aware of these principles and automatically run any suggestion they are about to make through their very own 'internalized forebrain principle sifter'. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Maerbenn · 01-17-2003, 12:06 PM

lindil wrote:

Quote:

JRRT: artist and illustrator has a picture of taniquetil in it where in there is someaspect of the sun [ I do not recall what anymore, that led Saulotus and I who were examining it - to be less than positive as to it's 'MTness']It was a very late picture also, mid 60's at the earliest as I recall.

Which picture are you referring to? Halls of Manwë on the Mountains of the World above Faerie (perhaps the most famous of the Professor's 'Silmarillion' pictures) dates from July 1928 according to the book.

**lindil** · 01-17-2003, 02:03 PM

Greetings Maerbenn! and thanks for speaking up.

I do not have it myself so I can't be more specific. What I do recall was that there was something about where the sun was that made me think that it must be 'old world'. As for the dates, I thought Saulotus and I checked it, but it was very late [ 3 or so am if I recall] and I am can not recall more details.

But if that is the only picture of Taniquetal then I must be amiss. Apologies, if so.

InklingElf · 01-18-2003, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Also A and to lesser degree B would violate the very working principles we have agreed upon. Every member should be fully aware of these principles and automatically run any suggestion they are about to make through their very own 'internalized forebrain principle sifter'.

Same thing goes for me...

Eru · 01-19-2003, 08:18 PM

i vote for c), if only because it makes the most sensew to me.

01-20-2003, 09:01 AM

I vote for C

Calavanya · 01-20-2003, 09:46 AM

I vote for c). Does anyone get to vote here or am I intruding? Hope I'm not [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-20-2003, 03:03 PM

*coughs and splutters* There is no point in be blabberring on about keeping the A) version if everyone supports the c) one. let's just stick with C).

Eru · 01-20-2003, 05:59 PM

who keeps blabbering on about keeping A), or B) for that matter?

although i agree, it looks like c), is/will be the winner.

but who am i to judge?

Westerly Wizard · 01-20-2003, 08:04 PM

As Lindil mentioned, I don't think we can be sure that Tolkien stuck to his revised ideas entirely, and we certainly can't be sure that he would not have changed back later. But most importantly, if you were to take the MT writings as fact and use them as a basis, it would be nearly impossible (and I hesitate when I add nearly) to create something that is Tolkien's writing and not entirely your own, as the MT ideas were not transferred back into the Silmarillion stories.

This wouldn't simply be to the extent Christopher Tolkien went in the "Fall of Doriath" and "Fall of Gondolin" stories, as he had solid basis from which he could write a story almost as a summary of his father's work. You would almost have to rewrite every story to fit with MT (if you took it all), and who knows how JRR would have done this if he did stick to MT: it very possibly could have led to huge changes in the stories that we cannot envision.

I would definitely choose to write something that is Tolkien's words, regardless if it was his last vision.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-21-2003, 08:36 AM

Dear god, (Eru) The person who keeps blaberring on about keeping a) is me.

Eru · 01-21-2003, 03:57 PM

my apologies. didn't think that was blubbering, though.

and don't call me God. that was, too bold, perhaps. as lindil suggested, call me lenwa. or whatever else may please you.

can i vote agian?

just kidding! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

HerenIstarion · 01-29-2003, 12:08 AM

Thank to all who expressed their opinion. C it is. The vote is over

01-17-2003, 02:37 AM	#1
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	*Round Earth Poll/Vote for Revised Ainulindale* The poll is also posted in the member only forum above, but I think the information as for vox populi would be also of assistance: Here we go: A) Round Earth version should be used Consequences : + we will keep the revised version in accordance with J.R.R.T's latest vision - insurmountable discord with the whole bulk of later (by book chronology) stories will arise B) Flat Earth version should be used, with the special proviso "thus was known to men" indicating that Eldar of Valinor knew thing as it was, but mannish tradition stuck to Sun and Moon as to leaves of Trees but not as to actual planet and star Consequences: + more or less as above, as - it will make the whole thing less "true". Special indication of the kind may eliminate the feeling of monolith Silmarillion always bore to me (and as far as I know many beside me) Some parts of it will be inconsistent with others C) Flat Earth version should be used, as for Round earth and Sun and Moon, no mention of Arda as Solar System and so forth should be made Consequences: + Greater consistency with the rest of the stories - Discord with the latest vision of J.R.R.T If I missed any other possibility or ommitted any consequence, pray feel free to add it up in series, or comments, as you find it convenient __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

01-17-2003, 09:33 AM	#3
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I would go with a), but the workload and the arguemnts would seem, especially at the slowish rate we are a bit too much. Ah, well there's my vote for A). __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-17-2003, 09:58 AM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Even though this was decided long ago [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] , I applaud you H-I for taking the bull by the horns! Actually this current vote shows the shortcomings of our 'system' of editing very nicely, but let us see if we can continue to make progress without devoting weeks or months to creating an elaborate and complex power/decision/voting structure. I vote for C, also, is there conclusive proof that JRRT stayed with the MT version? JRRT: artist and illustrator has a picture of taniquetil in it where in there is someaspect of the sun [ I do not recall what anymore, that led Saulotus and I who were examining it - to be less than positive as to it's 'MTness']It was a very late picture also, mid 60's at the earliest as I recall. Anyway if someone really wants A or B they should also propose how to deal with the manifold issues it raises. As has been noticed, JRRT left some sketches and outlines as to how to implement some of the changes, but they are nowhere near enough to truly doctor the early part of the Silm. Also A and to lesser degree B would violate the very working principles we have agreed upon. Every member should be fully aware of these principles and automatically run any suggestion they are about to make through their very own 'internalized forebrain principle sifter'. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

01-17-2003, 02:03 PM	#6
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Greetings Maerbenn! and thanks for speaking up. I do not have it myself so I can't be more specific. What I do recall was that there was something about where the sun was that made me think that it must be 'old world'. As for the dates, I thought Saulotus and I checked it, but it was very late [ 3 or so am if I recall] and I am can not recall more details. But if that is the only picture of Taniquetal then I must be amiss. Apologies, if so. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

01-19-2003, 08:18 PM	#8
Eru Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 71	i vote for c), if only because it makes the most sensew to me. __________________ "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

01-17-2003, 07:17 AM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I am not am member but that doesn't matter here. A is nearest to my hart, but for the projekt it would mean to end up with no more the short summary or "fan-fic" in grat parts. I personaly would evoid C. The plan of the projekt looks for me as to provide a single source of most relisble but nice to read information about Tolkiens-World. But the reliabilty will suffer graetly if you don't mention the latest idea of Tolkien for his univers. So it seems to me clear that B is the way the project has to go. Yust my two cent which are not realy of any worth here. Respectfully Findegil

01-20-2003, 09:01 AM	#9
fredd2332 Guest Posts: n/a	I vote for C

01-20-2003, 09:46 AM	#10
Calavanya Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Rivers & Lakes Posts: 25	I vote for c). Does anyone get to vote here or am I intruding? Hope I'm not [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Calavanya the Silverstream

01-20-2003, 03:03 PM	#11
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	coughs and splutters There is no point in be blabberring on about keeping the A) version if everyone supports the c) one. let's just stick with C). __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-20-2003, 05:59 PM	#12
Eru Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 71	who keeps blabbering on about keeping A), or B) for that matter? although i agree, it looks like c), is/will be the winner. but who am i to judge? __________________ "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

01-20-2003, 08:04 PM	#13
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	As Lindil mentioned, I don't think we can be sure that Tolkien stuck to his revised ideas entirely, and we certainly can't be sure that he would not have changed back later. But most importantly, if you were to take the MT writings as fact and use them as a basis, it would be nearly impossible (and I hesitate when I add nearly) to create something that is Tolkien's writing and not entirely your own, as the MT ideas were not transferred back into the Silmarillion stories. This wouldn't simply be to the extent Christopher Tolkien went in the "Fall of Doriath" and "Fall of Gondolin" stories, as he had solid basis from which he could write a story almost as a summary of his father's work. You would almost have to rewrite every story to fit with MT (if you took it all), and who knows how JRR would have done this if he did stick to MT: it very possibly could have led to huge changes in the stories that we cannot envision. I would definitely choose to write something that is Tolkien's words, regardless if it was his last vision. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

01-21-2003, 08:36 AM	#14
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Dear god, (Eru) The person who keeps blaberring on about keeping a) is me. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-21-2003, 03:57 PM	#15
Eru Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 71	my apologies. didn't think that was blubbering, though. and don't call me God. that was, too bold, perhaps. as lindil suggested, call me lenwa. or whatever else may please you. can i vote agian? just kidding! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

01-29-2003, 12:08 AM	#16
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Thank to all who expressed their opinion. C it is. The vote is over __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!