Anyone for a good debate?

[Iarwain]

I've already brought up this discussion once, but I want a little more input. What does everyone think of the end of Middle-Earth? The third coming of the Valar to Middle-Earth, Morgoth's return to power, and the destruction of Arda. What would anyone's opinion be on this event? Please state your opinions, your proofs, or your questions on this topic! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Morquesse]

I have something to say! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As for whither or not Tolkien would have compleated writting about the End and several other things if he lived another 50 years, I say probably not. His joy was to write and rewrite his stories, and I believe it was in his letters or his biography that a friend of his said that 'once you publish a story, the characters will sort of appear "dead", and as long as you rewrite the stories, the characters will appear living to you' (this is only a simi-quote, as I am sure where the exact quote is)
Anyway, that is my thought on that subject. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

See ya,
~M

[Galorme]

The thing is I don’t see why everyone sets so much store by what is "real" or "valid" or "cannon". I was thinking about this before, how different is the story in the Lost Tales different to the Silmirilion. If you take the Sil as True, does this mean you take the Lost Tales as False? Every story he wrote contradicts another in some small way, the Sil had to be changed a lot to fit with the LoTRs. Personally i love the Books of Lost Tales, and the story, I think, is better than the Sil. If i was to have read that first, then read the Sil, I would have felt a lost would have been lost (not least the tale of the End of Days).

You can say "what would the professor/JRRT/ 'The Master' [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] have thought" but to be honest he was only a man, albeit a clever one, and he doesn't really matter. What matters is what you enjoy in the books, what you get out of them. I love the story of the End, and I set a lot of store by it, purely because I think the Sil is lacking without it. But I hated the loss of Eriol as well, and all the characters of the Cottage and the Lonely Isle. They bought the story to life in a way that makes the Sil look old and dead by contrast. That view is just as valid. If I was to say “therefore the Sil is wrong” I would be mistaken. A story cannot be ‘wrong’. It can only be good or bad. And the End is a good story, and if you think that also then re-read it, think about it, discus it. But don’t ask whether it was ‘true’. Every part of the story is a lie, but "a lie breathed through silver".

[Iarwain]

Now, I am confused. I asked for people's opinions, not stating that any proofs would be "correct" or "incorrect". I'm sorry if I offended you Gallorme, but I believe we already discussed this topic together. I say "fine" to all of your opinions except one. You say that he has no relevance in his tales, but I say he does. Take a moment to think about the genre that all of his books are placed under: Fantasy, right? Then, ask whose fantasies? And here is the key. Woven in with the stories that you only think of only as a means of personal enjoyment, are dreams and ideas that could have been spun by none other than the "clever" Mr. Tolkien because of their wistful, reflective nature. Whether from the Book of Lost Tales, or the Silmarillion, or even the Lays of Beleriand; is not "the tale of tinuviel", "lay of leithian", or simply "beren and luthien" the most heroic, helpless, and yet the most joyful of all his tales in the end? And surely, Gallorme, you know whose tale he is telling. Now ask yourself another question. Without that clever (but ultimately disreguardable) man, would any of these tales really be the same?

[Galorme]

You have not offended me in the least, except perhaps by spelling my name wrong. Quite on the contrary, I am please to hear someone opening the doors to the Final Battle as it is. I also do not feel that Tolkien is unimportant as such. If by knowing him you feel you can get more out of his books then so be it (personally I think the books lost some of their charm after reading his biography, I feel I would have disliked him if I talked to him). As to whose fantasy, I would say whoever is reading it, the books are very subjective.

[Iarwain]

Thats very funny, because i've read that he absolutely hated obsessive readers because many of them would call him from overseas and wake him up in the middle of the night, asking questions that he didn't want to answer. So it seems that both of you would be content to simply know of each other's remote (and probably unincountered) existences, unless you went out to Oxford to meet him (which he would probably hated even more).

While reading, most of the time, I try not to think of Tolkien himself, but I find it irresistible while reading about Beren and Luithien; the two characters that he related so much to himself and his wife. It just makes me think 'wow, thats nice'. But I agree that other relations to Tolkien would make the books truly dry.

And sorry about the name. Who is it, or what does it mean?

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[elfling]

Well I haven't read emough of JRRT yet to answer well but I really like the idea that he rewrote his stories even changing them. I can't wait to start the Sil. and the rest just to read and reread his great stories. I think it shows his love of the stories that he spent so much time thinking of them that he rewrote them. Don't alot of us love them and reread them and dare I say rewrite them in our on imaginations.

[Iarwain]

Great words elfling, I think most everyone would agree with you. One thing that bothers me about the turnout of this topic is that after the first post, the conversation completely changed. I meant to find out about what people thought of the close of Middle-Earth assuming that it was going to happen.

[elfling]

Back to main question. I think he would have written more had he lived longer. The topics weree dear to him. I'm not sure what more of ME he would have writen and since he seemed to take his time developing his stories I don't know if a full novel with a nice ending would come. He probably would never write of the final end of ME since he hinted at a more fading away of ME. You know more of a whimper than a bang.

[Rumil]

End of ME?

Global Thermonuclear War????

[Manwe Sulimo]

Heh heh...time for some finger cramps.

In one of the HoMe books, it says that Túrin kills Melkor in the Dagor Dagorath (sp?), then Fëanor remakes/recovers the Silmarils, and Yavanna makes two new Trees, the Pélori are flattened, and the Light of the Trees is spread throughout the entire world.

I'm inclined to believe all this, since it's the only real outline of the Dagorath (again, sp?), and has a good ending [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Here's where the fun begins....

After the Dwarves help Aulë rebuild Arda, they all leave to their equivalent of Valinor. Most (note I say "most") of the Elves also go to Valinor. Humans stay behind, because it's their world. They go to sleep á la Aulë while Arda is rebuilt.

...They awaken 15,000 years (give or take a few) later. Since all their cities/anything were destroyed in the Dagoroth, they have to start over. Middle-earth/Aman has been changed, not drastically, but significatly enough that the former locations can't be found too easily again.

The early human revival takes the form of the great civilizations (e.g. Greece, Rome, Egypt/Nubia), where technology stays put because of persisting racial memories. Sooner or later, though, remnants of humans who had not gone into the Great Sleep (heh heh...capitilizing my own creation) invade and, POOF! ...there goes the past.

Technology, sadly, goes forward, new civilizations arise (France, Britain, Russia, etc.) The past has been forgotten, the world is going downhill....but this time, there's no one there to help us. A pity.

Little quirky things: descendents of Elven bloodlines can still find the straight path, á la the Bermuda Triangle (that's where all those missing ships go!)

"Dwarfs", our little people, are descended from none other than out friends the Hobbits!

Location changes (vague):

The Shire: Britain
Gondor: Italy/Greece
Mordor: Turkey (mountains, oh my!)
Rohan: Germany/France
Umbar: Canaan/Palestine/Israel
Rhûn: Russia
Númenórë: Atlantis (yes, that fits in somewhere, too)
Valinor: North/Central America
(specifics...)
Taniquetil: somewhere in the Appelacians/Mexican Rockies
Tol Eressëa (don't laugh): Cuba

Ever wonder why the "Maya" (think, "Maia") had such cool temples/pyramids? And "disappeared" so suddenly?

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee....


The END of Middle-earth will come with either
(as Rumil said) global thermonuclear war, or the explosion of Sol in 4 billion years.

Worship Eru, he is our Creator!
Fasting begins (and ends) on Midsummer, June 30.


This message has been brought to you by the Campaign for Real Time.

[Iarwain]

wow!!! Manwe, I must say, that was quite a rush. Very good ME/real world relationships. Two things. First, I would love to know which HoME book summs the Dagor Dagorath. Second; though I said that your relationships are most Excellent, it somehow angers me when people bring what were supposed to be legends into reality, and into the present day. To me its like changing greek mythology so that Zeus is dropping H-bombs instead of lightning bolts. Medieval myths, I think should be left medieval in their settings, because out of them, the heroism and magic of the tales is utterly lost.

Once again, let me make myself more clear in my inquiry, though manwe may have already solved it. Providing that we suppose that the tales of Middle-Earth are legends of a single civilization from a single period, therefore ruling out all technological development, what would the legend concerning the End be?

-The jolly old fellow with bright yellow boots.

[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Cúdae]

Alright, I'll admit to being quite confused by this thread and quite intimidated by Manwe's post. But I am going to try to answer something from somewhere on this thread. Note the word try. It does have something to do with an end, maybe not the End, but definately an end.

Somewhere I read about the sequel Tolkien started to write for the Lord of the Rings involvong Eldarion. But also read about why it was never published--or finished. From what I understand, Tolkien had no heart for the story. From what I know about this, I will say no, if Tolkien had lived longer he would not have written more about Middle-Earth. He might have rewritten other stories and added to them, but I doubt he would have written about much more of the future of Middle-Earth. But also, I have not read the Histories, so I could be completely wrong.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Iarwain, that's why I left the 15,000 years in between...so LotR and the real world wouldn't become too mixed with each other.

The HoMe book with the Dagoroth legend was Volume IV, The Shaping of Middle-earth, pp. 89-91.

The "End" of Middle-earth (or indeed of Arda) is actually a new beginning, in which the Two Trees are rekindled and everyone who ever existed comes back to life (talk about overpopulation). Melkor is finally defeated once and for all, and everyone is happy (especially the Dwarves, who get to help their own creator rebuild the world).

As for a civilization that this would be representative of....I have no freaking idea (pardon my "French").

I have seven degrees in Tolkienology!

This message has been brought to you by the Campaign for Real Time.

[Iarwain]

Though I started this topic, I find myself wondering what happened with the original question. First, people thought I was asking only about what they thought of Tolkien's constant rewriting of his tales. Then, they got closer: talking about whether or not Tolkien would have written the End. Finally, now they are relating Middle Earth to the real world through comparison and turning the Dagor Dagorlad into the present day. I have become utterly frustrated with my original post.

To Manwe, I say thank you for the HoME book, and I respond by saying that of course the End is a new beginning. How could it possibly be otherwise. reread the final paragraph (the one in italics) of the Quenta Silmarillion. If the world after the End fell into darkness, this could surely not be a positive final solution for the problems of Middle Earth. Therefore, the only way for life after the End to be a pleasing finale would be what you described.

Now, though, I fear that I have brought about yet another discussion that might be developed in this topic.

-My boots remain yellow,
Iarwain

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Iarwain]

Forgot to respond to cudae. This is what i have to say. Don't take this personally or anything, but I am absolutely SICK of people commenting on why Tolkien would not have written another sequel. This was not supposed to be a main part of the question. I have even removed all metion of whether or not Tolkien would have written the dagor dagorath (sorry I messed up on the last post). I understand that Tolkien probably would never have written the story of the End and published it. The point of the debate was that I could see if anyone thought otherwise and find out why. When I wrote the opening post, I intended each person to give their opinions on all questions stated. Unfortunately, I phrased it in a way in which it was widely misunderstood. The interpreted question caught on, and I have yet only gotten one person to answer the question I truly intended to ask, and that is Manwe.

-my boots are fading

[Manwe Sulimo]

Well, that is what we're *supposed* to be here for [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Atariel]

technically and theoretically, Middle Earth never ended, because it becomes what we now know as America, Europe and Africa. and also, when Aman was removed from the *circles* of the world, only certain boats could reach there. obviously, if it was the *circles*, then the world must have been circular in shape i.e a sphere. isn't that cool to think that Rivendell could have been anywhere? But it's kind of nasty to think that it may have been in Birmingham or something. no offence to anyone from Birmingham.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Wow...opening this back up?

That was my theory, too. (*Wink Wink*)

[Iarhen]

Any more details about the battle?

I read somewhere that men who wanted to aid would be carried over the sea to Valinor by fairies?

Would Morgoth return along with Sauron?

DETAILS PLEASE!

[GreatWarg]

I've actually sort of wondered what type of army would the Free Folk be facing... Orcs? Trolls? Men corrupted yet again?

And what about the hobbits? Where would their free-spirited and amiable souls be in all this mess? Tolkien tells us about Elves, Men, and Dwarves... so what would the hobbits do? Simply live in their own version of Valinor, or return to the Circles of the World with men?

I don't think I can really add to any of the good and lengthy discussion above concerning the Final Battle, so I will merely add more food for thought.

[Finwe]

I'm assuming that since all the Elves who died were summoned back from Mandos for the Dagor Dagorath, then the same process will occur for Men (and Hobbits, I presume, although I have no earthly idea what they'd do in a battle like that).

Perhaps the army that the Forces of Light will fight against will be made up of Orcs, Trolls, Goblins, Easterlings, Haradrim, and suchlike.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

What about the end?

I think that end may have come if Sauron had won control of Middle Earth. Then, after he had subjugated the rest of the peoples to Conquest, War, Famine or Pestilence, and finally they all fell, the only thing left to deal with his evil would have been the Valar, and they would have perceived his tremendous growth in power and ability as a threat to themselves and much more 'their concern', especially if one of Sauron's goals upon regaining that power was to free Morgoth from purgatory.

Of course, not that many evil dictators really care about paving the way for their former mentors to come back. "Yes, the world is mine! Now nobody will complain when I totally relinquish my throne to the very guy I replaced!" It just doesn't make sense. More likely Morgoth's Plan B entailed that upon failure, he could find a loophole if somebody like the ambitious young Sauron decided to attempt the same thing he once had.

[Iarhen]

Precisely thats one of the ideas I have brought up in recent discussion...

Sauron might have ended Arda as we know it, with all of the remaining Children of Illuvatar kept captive in M.E. and the Valar having to summon up another army to defeat him... But with a greater cost, since all M.E. would have been dominated and the free peoples would have been perverted...

And maybe it is not Sauron's conscious goal. But Morgoth has much power still on this Earth, and maybe it was a back up plan, to induce Sauron to become a Dark Lord, in order for him to come back, for example, since a big part of the maiar and the remaining elves in Valinor would depart to make war on Sauron, the guard on the Void's door would probably diminish, and voilá! A way back for Morgoth Bauglir to reenter M.E.!

[Finwe]

Wouldn't someone have had to let Morgoth in? I think that it says in HoME that one day, when the watch of Earendil fails (i.e. Earendil oversleeps [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) Morgoth will come in through the Doors of the Night. Thus, Sauron would have had to divert Earendil's attention for Morgoth to even get the opportunity to sneak back in.

[Earendilyon]

Personally I think that just one of the Valar, say Tulkas, or even Gandalf the White would've been powerfull enough to overcome Sauron, if he had been in control of ME.
They would have had no dealings with Sauron's minions, nor even with the Nazgûl, but only with Sauron himself. As Sauron was far less powerfull than Morgoth and since he had to spend a lot of his power to controll all his minions and to keep in check the suppressed human and Elvish peoples, he would have had far less power.
Tulkas overcame Morgoth in man to man ( [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) combat, so he certainly could've overcome Sauron. GtW got a big power boosting when becoming 'The White' and being send back to ME. If all else had failed, I think he was appointed by Eru to manifest himself in all his power and take Sauron from his hideaway in Mordor and bring him to Manwe (or Eru) for judgement.

[Findegil]

Let's reconcile all the ideas a bit. What ever we have read or not read about the Dagro Dagorath, it was all in phrophecy. Even when Eriol was to take a role in the great second march of the Elves, that would not be the begining of the Dagorath because the march was crused and would not have the result the elves hoped for.

So, if we speak of the Dagorath we speak still of an event in (hopfully) fare the future.

And that was exactly so, because Tolkien whished for his story to take place in our own legendary past. As we can see many legends of old give an acount of the End of the world, which for the reporters of that legend lay still in the future (take the Ragnarök of the nordic Godnesses as an example). And also Tolkiens legends give hints of that future event, even the late ones as we can see in The Unfinished Tales.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Iarhen]

I wonder... will the Queens of the Valar fight in the Dagor Dagorath? Or only the Valar?

Also... will "pacific" maiar (like Melian, Olorin, etc) fight? I wonder if Bauglir will return with more Balrogs... because all of other ones were destroyed, along with his Dragons...

Is is true that if the Edain fight on Morgoth´s side, Bauglir wins?

[GreatWarg]

Personally, I think Varda would be a great help against Morgoth. Didn't it say somewhere that he could not withstand her gaze, and that even before the creation of Arda that she shunned him?

I can imagine Varda smirking at Morgoth, and Morgoth sweating like crazy... heh.

And even if the Queens of the Valar did not fight, I think Fëanor, Fingolfin, Maedhros, and plenty of other Elves would be looking for rematches or revenge against Morgoth.

I do not think ALL the Edain would join up with Sauron, but plenty of them probably would... At least the Three Houses of Elf-friends and the Numenoreans would still be with the Eldar! Although that does seem pitifully few when compared to the vast legions of darker Men.

Maybe the hobbits will help save the day! I can see ole' Bullroarer Took sitting astride a stallion and charging the armies of Orcs with naught but a golf club. But seriously, the hobbits have proven themselves battle-worthy, as little as they may be.

[Finwe]

I don't think the Queens of the Valar would actively join the fight (they wouldn't be directly on the battlefield) but they would probably send followers and suchlike to aid in the cause. For example, Yavanna could send the Ents, and Vana and Nessa might send warrior Maia maidens (if they existed, perhaps I'm getting too in touch with the Valkyries).