Legolas's name - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

LadyElbereth · 09-16-2002, 01:17 PM

this has been bothering me for some time *takes a deep breath*
ok, if Legolas's name is "Legolas Greenleaf", is "Legolas" Elven and "Greenleaf" also Elven? or is "Legolas" Elven and "Greenleaf" Commonspeech? because if that was the case then Legolas's name in Elven would actually be "Legolas Legolas" because Legolas literally means Greenleaf. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
~LadyElbereth

burrahobbit · 09-16-2002, 01:41 PM

Legolas is his name, Greenleaf is the english trnslation of his name, used to represent the Westron. Sort of like Fangorn and Treebeard.

Birdland · 09-17-2002, 12:30 AM

Actually, his name was "Greenleaf Greenleaf Greenleaf".

Sorry. Every time this subject comes up, I'm reminded of "Catch-22" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

the real findorfin · 09-17-2002, 03:01 AM

Talking fo Legolas, I read some time ago about the princes of Mirkwood.

Thranduil was the father and Legolas was his son but not the first for he would not have been sent on such a mission. Who were the other sons and who was the mother?

Their is probably no answer written down but speculation is always good!

Guess-work even? (perhaps not!)

HerenIstarion · 09-17-2002, 04:52 AM

As far as I know, no other princes or Thranduil's wife are mentioned anywhere. If it may ease your curiosity, Legolas' grandfather was named Oropher (poor comfort, to request for brother and get a grandpa, [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ).

Yet I beleive quest of the ring may be considered event important enough to send the only son and throne's heir to take part in it.

Still more that Legolas was sent to announce Gollum's dissappearence in the first place. Decision to become part of the fellowship was his and Elrond's, not Thranduil's. Yet I can well imagine Thranduil seeing his son off with kind of last words: "Do Master Elrond's bidding, my son" or something os the kind.

LadyElbereth · 09-17-2002, 07:01 AM

Thanks burrahobbit!
you mean someone already posted this topic!?!lol, i thought i was the only one who thought of silly questions to ask, guess i'm wrong. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
hmmm, I wonder why Tolkien didn't right much of Legolas's history...

AragornsHeir · 10-05-2002, 09:14 AM

Legolas Greenleaf of Eryn Lasgale(Mirkwood's
undark name)

Greenleaf Greenleaf of wood of the greenleavs

Eruialiwen · 10-05-2002, 04:25 PM

Wowza, that sure was informative, thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I like knowing more in-depth info about favorite characters of mine [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 10-06-2002, 04:42 AM

OK since we are discussing the name of the 'original Legolas green leaf' in the Revised Silmarillion forum I will share a bit of the etymological discussions going on.

The original usage of the name was for an Elf of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales v.II.

He along w/ many characters and details are left out of the compressed version written c.1930. So we are left to figure out what to do w/ a charcter whose name has been appropriated.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

old comments on Legolas

lindil:looking legolas up in the name list on p.216 I
read:'named by the eldar there [in Tol Eressea]
Laiqalasse'
So he has already been given a 'Quenya' name by JRRT!
there is then a reference to an extended note in I
wherein we read CRT saying
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'the following Note is of
great interest' "Laigolas =green-leaf,......legolast
i.e.keen-sight...but perhaps both were his names as the
gnomes delighted to give similar sounding namesof
dissimilar meaning, legolas-the ordinary form is a
confusion of the 2."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we are given 2 options that I can see [and I do not
excpect anyone to rely on me for linguistic skills!]

A 'quenya' - Laiqalasse'
or an uncorrupted 'sindarin' - Laigolas Legolast.
a third option could be just Laigolas -

Aiwendil:I don't think 'Laigolas' is usable, at least not if it is meant to represent a different word from 'Legolas'. It seems most probable to me that it was merely an alternate spelling. But anyway, if we accept the etymology of Legolas (as we must), then 'Laigolas' lacks an etymology entirely.

Tar Elenion :Actually there is an etymology of sorts.
"Legolas means 'green-leaves', a woodland name - dialetical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lasse [with overscore on the 'e'] (High-elven lasse, S. las(s)) 'leaf'; *gwa-lassa/*gwa-lassie 'collection of leaves, foliage' (H.E. olassie [w/ overscore on 'e'], S. golas, -olas); *laika 'green' - basis LAY as in laire 'summer' (H.E. laica, S. laeg (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg)."
Quoted from Letter 211.
"'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'."
Quoted from Letter 297.

'ae' and 'ai' are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad's spear)).

Aiwendil:What I meant was that 'Laigolas' is really not a different name at all from 'Legolas'. However, 'Legolast' might be used, if it could still represent 'keen-sight' (I doubt if it could, but we might change it to a more suitable form).

lindil:Re: legolast /laigolas etc. I am for anything other than duplicating legolas /legolas greenleaf.
The others are such close variants that perhaps the Quenya version should be used despite it standing out.

Cian :

I'd go with Laegolas for the "pure Sindarin" that JRRT offers, in the letter quoted by Tar-Elenion.

Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor "older" word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old "Qenya" orthography.

Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas, -olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves. Cheers~

Lindil: I vote for Cian's proposal Laegolas
[ unless someone can convince me otherwise]

Aesthetically I would prefer smething even farther removed as I think JRRT would have altogether changed it, but any change is better than recycling legolas, imo.

[transfered from the thread 'Revised fall of Gondolin' in the Silm forum]

09-16-2002, 01:17 PM	#1
LadyElbereth Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Taniquetil Posts: 183	Legolas's name this has been bothering me for some time takes a deep breath ok, if Legolas's name is "Legolas Greenleaf", is "Legolas" Elven and "Greenleaf" also Elven? or is "Legolas" Elven and "Greenleaf" Commonspeech? because if that was the case then Legolas's name in Elven would actually be "Legolas Legolas" because Legolas literally means Greenleaf. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ~LadyElbereth __________________ If I could be anything, I'd be your tear, so I could be born in your eye, live down your cheek, and die on your lips.

09-16-2002, 01:41 PM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Legolas is his name, Greenleaf is the english trnslation of his name, used to represent the Westron. Sort of like Fangorn and Treebeard. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

09-17-2002, 03:01 AM	#4
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Talking fo Legolas, I read some time ago about the princes of Mirkwood. Thranduil was the father and Legolas was his son but not the first for he would not have been sent on such a mission. Who were the other sons and who was the mother? Their is probably no answer written down but speculation is always good! Guess-work even? (perhaps not!) __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

09-17-2002, 04:52 AM	#5
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	As far as I know, no other princes or Thranduil's wife are mentioned anywhere. If it may ease your curiosity, Legolas' grandfather was named Oropher (poor comfort, to request for brother and get a grandpa, [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ). Yet I beleive quest of the ring may be considered event important enough to send the only son and throne's heir to take part in it. Still more that Legolas was sent to announce Gollum's dissappearence in the first place. Decision to become part of the fellowship was his and Elrond's, not Thranduil's. Yet I can well imagine Thranduil seeing his son off with kind of last words: "Do Master Elrond's bidding, my son" or something os the kind. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

09-17-2002, 07:01 AM	#6
LadyElbereth Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Taniquetil Posts: 183	Thanks burrahobbit! you mean someone already posted this topic!?!lol, i thought i was the only one who thought of silly questions to ask, guess i'm wrong. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] hmmm, I wonder why Tolkien didn't right much of Legolas's history... __________________ If I could be anything, I'd be your tear, so I could be born in your eye, live down your cheek, and die on your lips.

09-17-2002, 12:30 AM	#3
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Actually, his name was "Greenleaf Greenleaf Greenleaf". Sorry. Every time this subject comes up, I'm reminded of "Catch-22" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

10-05-2002, 09:14 AM	#7
AragornsHeir Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hopfully Rhode Island soon. Posts: 27	Legolas Greenleaf of Eryn Lasgale(Mirkwood's undark name) Greenleaf Greenleaf of wood of the greenleavs __________________ Tiro! Êl eria e môr. Look! A star rises out of the darkness I 'lîr en êl luitha 'uren. The song of the star enchants my heart Ai! Aníron... An!I desire...

10-05-2002, 04:25 PM	#8
Eruialiwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Virginia Posts: 71	Wowza, that sure was informative, thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I like knowing more in-depth info about favorite characters of mine [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ~'%From the mouths of the Sea the South Wind flies, from the sandhills and the stones; The wailing of the gulls it bears, and at the gate it moans.%'~

10-06-2002, 04:42 AM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	OK since we are discussing the name of the 'original Legolas green leaf' in the Revised Silmarillion forum I will share a bit of the etymological discussions going on. The original usage of the name was for an Elf of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales v.II. He along w/ many characters and details are left out of the compressed version written c.1930. So we are left to figure out what to do w/ a charcter whose name has been appropriated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ old comments on Legolas lindil:looking legolas up in the name list on p.216 I read:'named by the eldar there [in Tol Eressea] Laiqalasse' So he has already been given a 'Quenya' name by JRRT! there is then a reference to an extended note in I wherein we read CRT saying Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'the following Note is of great interest' "Laigolas =green-leaf,......legolast i.e.keen-sight...but perhaps both were his names as the gnomes delighted to give similar sounding namesof dissimilar meaning, legolas-the ordinary form is a confusion of the 2." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So we are given 2 options that I can see [and I do not excpect anyone to rely on me for linguistic skills!] A 'quenya' - Laiqalasse' or an uncorrupted 'sindarin' - Laigolas Legolast. a third option could be just Laigolas - Aiwendil:I don't think 'Laigolas' is usable, at least not if it is meant to represent a different word from 'Legolas'. It seems most probable to me that it was merely an alternate spelling. But anyway, if we accept the etymology of Legolas (as we must), then 'Laigolas' lacks an etymology entirely. Tar Elenion :Actually there is an etymology of sorts. "Legolas means 'green-leaves', a woodland name - dialetical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: lasse [with overscore on the 'e'] (High-elven lasse, S. las(s)) 'leaf'; gwa-lassa/gwa-lassie 'collection of leaves, foliage' (H.E. olassie [w/ overscore on 'e'], S. golas, -olas); laika 'green' - basis LAY as in laire 'summer' (H.E. laica, S. laeg (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg)." Quoted from Letter 211. "'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'." Quoted from Letter 297. 'ae' and 'ai' are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad's spear)). Aiwendil:What I meant was that 'Laigolas' is really not a different name at all from 'Legolas'. However, 'Legolast' might be used, if it could still represent 'keen-sight' (I doubt if it could, but we might change it to a more suitable form). lindil:Re: legolast /laigolas etc. I am for anything other than duplicating legolas /legolas greenleaf. The others are such close variants that perhaps the Quenya version should be used despite it standing out. Cian : I'd go with Laegolas for the "pure Sindarin" that JRRT offers, in the letter quoted by Tar-Elenion. Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor "older" word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old "Qenya" orthography. Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas, -olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves. Cheers~ Lindil: I vote for Cian's proposal Laegolas [ unless someone can convince me otherwise] Aesthetically I would prefer smething even farther removed as I think JRRT would have altogether changed it, but any change is better than recycling legolas, imo. [transfered from the thread 'Revised fall of Gondolin' in the Silm forum] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.