the Valar vs. Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maverick · 01-18-2004, 11:39 PM

The Valar sent 5 maiar to help in the War against Sauron. But hears my question. Why didn't the valar go down and just kick Sauron's butt before he gained so much power. After the overthrow of Morgoth he hid and they didn't know where he was. But over time everyone knew where he was. And since Sauron was a maiar it would have been easy for the Valar (since there are alot of them and they're all more powerful than Sauron since he's a maiar) to go down there and kill Sauron. Any idea why they sent 5 maiar instead of going and killing him they're selves?

Olorin · 01-19-2004, 12:01 AM

It wasn't the Valar's battle. The battle belonged to the peoples of ME. That's why the istari weren't aloud to use their true power. There are other topics like this. you might want to use the search function.

Gil-Galad · 01-19-2004, 07:52 AM

They were sent to help the peoples of middle earth, not to take matter into their own hands but to lead them, and it clearly shows that Gandalf did the most work

Finwe · 01-19-2004, 08:07 AM

Try searching for discussions on free will in Middle-earth. The whole idea of creating the Elves and Men was so that they could have free will and fight their own battles. The Valar couldn't mollycoddle them all the time. They tried that in the First Age, and it failed catastrophically. Just look at the Rebellion of the Noldor! Also, after the destruction of Numenor, the Valar had given up their Guardianship of Middle-earth, and were no longer actively responsible for it. In any event, they could send emissaries (like the Istari) but they themselves could not come and defeat Sauron. That task was left to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, to order and defend their own world.

The Perky Ent · 01-19-2004, 09:40 AM

I think all of you are right. Valar aren't responcebly for whatever trouble men and elves get themselfs into. Plus, if the valar squashed sauron like a bug, the lord of the rings would cease to exsist, because there would be nothing to write about. Plus, would the valar really want to go all the way to middle-earth just to squash a bug? (with a ring of power and a evil army of orcs)

Altariel · 01-19-2004, 11:57 AM

After the end of the First Age, I believe that the Valar decided to withdraw to Aman and leave the people of Middle-Earth to fight their own battles.

Earendilyon · 01-19-2004, 01:16 PM

Finwe said:

Quote:

Also, after the destruction of Numenor, the Valar had given up their Guardianship of Middle-earth, and were no longer actively responsible for it.

IIRC, they just gave their Guardianship up for that time, not alltogether.

I looked it up and the Silm says:

Quote:

Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.

Finwe · 01-19-2004, 01:30 PM

I suppose that it's open to interpretation. I thought that the quote that you mentioned meant: "...and from that time onwards, they gave up their government of Arda."

Earendilyon · 01-19-2004, 01:37 PM

To me 'for that time' is 'for that time' and not 'from that time onwards'.

Edit: I had a look in Letters and found this:

From Letter 131:

Quote:

Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed.

And from Letter 156:

Quote:

The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God; and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred. At the moment that Arpharazôn set foot on the forbidden shore, a rift appeared: Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed (....)

According to Letter 131 the Valar themselves got the power to deal with the Númenóreans, while Letter 156 is not perfectly clear on this.
Anyway, the sending of the Istari is in my opinion proof of the Valar's government of Arda. Remember, that they were bound to Arda by Eru and had to rule it while it lasted.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:38 PM January 19, 2004: Message edited by: Earendilyon ]

01-18-2004, 11:39 PM	#1
Maverick Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 19	the Valar vs. Sauron The Valar sent 5 maiar to help in the War against Sauron. But hears my question. Why didn't the valar go down and just kick Sauron's butt before he gained so much power. After the overthrow of Morgoth he hid and they didn't know where he was. But over time everyone knew where he was. And since Sauron was a maiar it would have been easy for the Valar (since there are alot of them and they're all more powerful than Sauron since he's a maiar) to go down there and kill Sauron. Any idea why they sent 5 maiar instead of going and killing him they're selves?

01-19-2004, 12:01 AM	#2
Olorin Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Where the sun sails and the moon walks. Posts: 155	It wasn't the Valar's battle. The battle belonged to the peoples of ME. That's why the istari weren't aloud to use their true power. There are other topics like this. you might want to use the search function. __________________ Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then don't be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

01-19-2004, 07:52 AM	#3
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	They were sent to help the peoples of middle earth, not to take matter into their own hands but to lead them, and it clearly shows that Gandalf did the most work __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

01-19-2004, 08:07 AM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Try searching for discussions on free will in Middle-earth. The whole idea of creating the Elves and Men was so that they could have free will and fight their own battles. The Valar couldn't mollycoddle them all the time. They tried that in the First Age, and it failed catastrophically. Just look at the Rebellion of the Noldor! Also, after the destruction of Numenor, the Valar had given up their Guardianship of Middle-earth, and were no longer actively responsible for it. In any event, they could send emissaries (like the Istari) but they themselves could not come and defeat Sauron. That task was left to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, to order and defend their own world. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-19-2004, 09:40 AM	#5
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	I think all of you are right. Valar aren't responcebly for whatever trouble men and elves get themselfs into. Plus, if the valar squashed sauron like a bug, the lord of the rings would cease to exsist, because there would be nothing to write about. Plus, would the valar really want to go all the way to middle-earth just to squash a bug? (with a ring of power and a evil army of orcs) __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

01-19-2004, 11:57 AM	#6
Altariel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Angband (a small region in northern BC) Posts: 50	After the end of the First Age, I believe that the Valar decided to withdraw to Aman and leave the people of Middle-Earth to fight their own battles. __________________ "Candy: tastes like chicken, if chicken was a candy."

01-19-2004, 01:30 PM	#8
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I suppose that it's open to interpretation. I thought that the quote that you mentioned meant: "...and from that time onwards, they gave up their government of Arda." __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.