Wolf or Hyena?

[LePetitChoux]

Animated cartoon wargs:<BR><A HREF="http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/tolkien/lord-of-the-rings.html" TARGET=_blank>The picture wasn't working, so just click here and scroll down nearly to the end</A><P>PJ' wargs:<BR> <P>I always imagined them as the first picture- wargs are described as WOLVES, for Pete's (no pun intended) sake!<BR>Did anyone at all imagine them as hyenas crossed with Trollgodytes from Heroes of Might and Magic III?<p>[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: LePetitChoux ]

[mollecon]

Well, I think you're right in the sense that Varg = wolf, language wise. But I think the hyenas work quite well - they are uglier than wolfs (which are quite beautiful animals)...

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Wolfena? I think P.J described them as a cross between the two animals

[DaughterofVana]

Yet ANOTHER discrepancy between the movie and the book, I suppose. Though they do not resemble the wolves of today, how about ancient wolves from the ice age or further back? Since ME is, some say, our own world in the far distant past, that would work out on one level, at least. But then again, the Rohorrim weren't clothed in animal skins and living in caves.<P>Or not....<P>-'Vana

[Gilthalion]

I think <B>DaughterofVana</B> may be on the right track.<P>They do resemble hyenas, on the large and primitive side, of course. It definitely rings a bell. These cinematic wargs may have been taken from an actual prehistoric canine.<P>Note also the oliphaunts! If I am not mistaken there are fossils of pachyderms of that size and tusk-structure back a couple of million years. I remember something of the like very clearly.<P>Someone with a little more energy (I am tired and hungry and about to leave!) might be able to look these up and get a match.

[Iargwath]

I always thought that Peter Jackson got his ideas from the <A HREF="http://orcutts1.sbceo.k12.ca.us/public/dunlap/dire.html" TARGET=_blank>Dire Wolf</A> (note the similarity in the picture on the top left hand side)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The dire wolf was a large canine that exhibited hyena like characteristics. Like the hyena, the dire wolf had a large, broad head and short, more sturdy legs than its modern relative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HCIsland]

Neat Iargwath.<P>They are definately described as wolves in the book, so the departure from a more traditional wolf was deliberate. Like every aspect of these films, I'm sure they went through a very long design evolution that will be interesting to see when the DVD's come out. They may have simply felt that wolves were not scary or otherworldly enough.<P>Although a departure from the book, they worked for me.<P>H.C.

[Dain]

I think they looked good--but they did jump and pounce a bit more like big cats than dogs/wolves, I thought. I always thought it was a shame that Tolkien chose wolves to be evil creatures, they are such amazing animals. Maybe that's why PJ changed them.<P>As for dire wolves, <A HREF="http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/flora/wolf.html" TARGET=_blank>this pic</A> looks more like a wolf.

[Rynoah, the Overly-Happy]

I was a bit disappointed by the Wargs as well, considering how I envisioned them in the books. They were beautifully powerful, though, even if they weren't pleasing to the eye, and I'd love to keep one in the corral out back for... neighborhood dog extermination purposes.<P>Dire wolves are mentioned here. An article <A HREF="http://faculty.evansville.edu/ck6/bstud/direwolf.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A> doesn't shed much light on the subject, but they have a picture that is supposedly "proportioned according to precisely measured skeletal remains." As you can see, it doesn't resemble the hyena much.<P>For comparison, you can find a picture of a dire wolf skull <A HREF="http://www.naturalworlds.org/wolf/history/Canis_dirus.htm" TARGET=_blank>here</A> and a spotted hyena skull <A HREF="http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/media/anat/family_pages/carnivora/hyaenidae.jpg" TARGET=_blank>here</A>, though it's hard to get a good comparison with that dire wolf photo. Unfortunately, it was the only one that was decently preserved that I could find. The dire wolf was also mostly found in the Florida and California areas, where there were more tar pits. I didn't find anything about fossils found in Britain or anywhere in the United Kingdom, so I'm not sure you can safely count the dire wolf as a candidate for the Wargs made in the movies. I think Peter Jackson just decided that the Wargwraiths needed mounts as ugly as their riders so that the image of the majestic wolf wouldn't be marred.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The dire wolf was also mostly found in the Florida and California areas, where there were more tar pits. I didn't find anything about fossils found in Britain or anywhere in the United Kingdom, so I'm not sure you can safely count the dire wolf as a candidate for the Wargs made in the movies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Though I've heard there is fossil evidence in Britain from Trolls, Fell Beasts and Balrogs. <P>H.C.

[Rynoah, the Overly-Happy]

Of course, HC. You don't think Tolkien would pitch us a big ball of fiction, do you?

[Gilthalion]

The first set of DIRE WOLF photos from La Brea are exactly what I was thinking. If PJ used this breed, then it was no great matter (!) to configure the software to make the skeletons move and to flesh 'em out and give them fur.<P>The fur pattern cannot be guessed from the skeletons, but that alone can create a great variation in appearance. <P>Comparing a modern wolf skeleton with a modern hyena skull and the Dire Wolf skull reveals more than the reconstructions that in the first case linked above favors the hyena, and in the next favors the wolf.<P>Looking at the hyena, the Dire Wolf (<I>canis dirus</I>), and PJ's Warg (<I>canis vargus jacksonus</I>), you can see that the PJ Warg has a great development of the musculature. This is logical because of the Dire Wolf's teeth being larger than the modern wolf, so for the Dire Wolf had bigger bones to crunch in the critters they hunted.<P>However, the PJ Warg has his eyes set further forward than the Dire Wolf, more like the Hyena. Furthermore, the Dire Wolf, though larger than a Grey Wolf, is smaller than a Timber Wolf. Tolkien's Wargs (<I>canis vargus tolkienus</I>) were as big as PJ Wargs, big enough to ride, and most of us seem to think that they looked more like modern wolves than not.<P>Still, I do remember some sort of prehistoric canine that fits the bill for PJ's Wargs, and it seemed to me that the muscular model shown in the first Dire Wolf link was appropriate to what PJ did, excepting in size.<P>Thanks for all the hard work digging up (heh, heh) the DIRE WOLF, which in some depictions does seem to be the creature that PJ used to bring Tolkien's WARG to life. Perhaps the question is not answered to everyone's satisfaction, but it seems that the bell did ring clearly enough and my memory is not yet entirely shot.<P>Now, about them Oliphaunts...<p>[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Gilthalion ]

[Vardamar]

I tell you what. Id like one of those Wargs as a gaurd dog <BR>Lets see those darn people coming to my door and asking me join join this or sign that <p>[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Vardamar ]

[Iargwath]

This has turned into a very intellegent discussion indeed! There have been many artist conceptions on what the dire wolf did actually look like. That may explain the difference in physical appearance of the wolf. The conceptions are not always accurate though, they could differ slightly or even differ dramatically.

[Vardamar]

Actually I always pictured them as something like the Andrewsarchus. Heres a link to some info. <A HREF="http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/beasts/photo/photo_zoom1.html" TARGET=_blank>Here</A><BR>I dont know if I'd want to, but it would be big enough to ride <p>[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: Vardamar ]

[Horse-Maiden of the Shire]

I know this isn't relevant at all, but in that cartoon-link, is it just me or does the picture of a closeup of Gandalf the White look like he has on a 70's pimp hat?<P>Anyways, when I saw the cartoon The Hobbit, I imagined the Wargs looking eviller and fouler than regular old wolves. In The Hobbit they just looked like average North American Gray Wolves. PJ did a better job of portraying them, they looked rightly foul and evil, if I may say so.<p>[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Horse-Maiden of the Shire ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And a few minor things I noticed in the preview: they made the wargs look like huge hyena's instead of wolves, they should have had a longer snout... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I said that in the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001384" TARGET=_blank>"Return to Middle Earth" special on tonight on the WB! 12/4 Wed.</A> thread. So, yes I do think that they look like hyenas

[avarrogion]

WEll to me i believe Wargs are more bear hybrid Hyena type of creature....

[The Saucepan Man]

Ah, another thread about those damn hyena-teddybear-lemming hybrids. <P>I'm sorry, but they just do not look fierce to me in the film. I actually like the model of the film-Warg's head at the top of this thread. But they seem to have lost their ferocity with the addition of fur and those sad, beady little eyes.<P>To me, they should be huge, evil-looking ferocious wolves with long snouts brim full of impressive fangs. Very different from the noble wolves we have today, but wolves nevertheless.<P>Vardamar, I agree that the Andrewsarchus would have provided a good model, although the beast itself was far to big. But something like this, with an evil expression and wicked, glinting eyes would have worked well for me.

[avarrogion]

Well i have to agree with you on that...they are not that fierce looking...if only they are a bit more pump up if you guys get what i mean!