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04-01-2003, 12:22 AM | #1 |
Animated Skeleton
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WWII Parallels
Hey, I was just think9ng the other day and I know that JRR himself avidly claimed that hiss books were not allegory, but the Two Towers seems to be quite parallel to the events of WWII. Here are some parallels I drew:
Rohan=Poland Isengard=Germany Gondor=England The Ents=USA Mordor=Russia(?) Anyway, this would make sense, seing that this was written in that time period.
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04-01-2003, 01:05 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but, there are no allegories. And maybe I might be a little less sure of this f you would explain your examples. Because I just can't see how Isengard=Germany, and Gondor=England, if England was constantly fighting Germany yet in TTT Gondor was fighting the forces of Mordor and not Isengard. Not only that, Germany took over Poland very early in the war, yet in TTT, Rohan fights (the forces of) Isengard and defeats them, so Rohan=Poland and Isengard=Germany does not make sense. And Russia was apart of the Allies, fighting Germany, but in TTT, Mordor does not have a coalition or an alliance with Rohan, Gondor, or the Ents.
And it doesn't make sense anyways because Tolkien said that this was not an allegory. Mordor and Sauron would make more sense as the nazis and Hitler, but again, it is not so. Sorry...
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04-01-2003, 02:19 AM | #3 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Well, I think it depends how precisely you define 'allegory'. There must be some 'middle ground' where allegory blurs into 'applicability'. Tolkin himself said it was impossible for an author to be unaffected by the events going on around him. I think Tolkien was objecting to a straight, one to one, allegorical linking of LotR & WW2. But You can't deny a number of very close similarities between LotR & events in the 20th century, especially the wars, though maybe more WW1 than WW2.
Plus, I suspect Tolkien 'protested too much' when he said he hated Allegory. What's Leaf by Niggle if not allegory? He was also capable of using allegory in a very effective way, for instance with the Tower analogy in Monsters & Critics. |
04-01-2003, 04:24 AM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I believe that Tolkien used the words "allegory" to mean something that is in the mind of the author and "applicabillity" to mean something that happens in the readers mind.
Lord of the Rings isn't an allegory of WWII. Many of the plot ideas were conceived before the war and all of them were in place long before the war ended. We can all play games with "applicabillity". My list of LoTR groups and WWII nations would be very different from Son of Fire's list. I would equate Rohan with USA, who listened to the whispers of isolationism (=Wormtongue) and did nothing to help UK and France (=Gondor) against Germany (=Mordor) until their own interests were threatened by Mordor's ally Isengard (=Japan). |
04-01-2003, 09:47 AM | #5 |
Pile O'Bones
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I agree with those parralells, Selmo, more than the past ones that were drawn up. However, I can see the Ents being the USA in a way, because they also entered the war when Isengard(Japan) threatened their own interests, and their entry into the war tipped the balance of the war. However, the Ents did not fight Mordor, only the Rohirrim. SO, I think the USA would be represented by BOTH the Ents and Rohan, but principly Rohan, as recently suggested. Also, I would see Gandalf as perhaps Dwight D. Eisenhower, leading the final "blitzcreig" to the gates of Mordor, like the American rush that broke the back of the German forces in Europe. How about it?
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04-01-2003, 09:50 AM | #6 |
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PS: I realize that Aragorn perhaps 'led' the charge to the Black Gate, but Gandalf set more plans in motion, that is why I did not mention Aragorn, even though he could perhaps also be seen as a parallel to Eisenhower, and Gandalf could have been Roosevelt, counseling with Theoden and aiding to get Rohan into the war.
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04-01-2003, 10:21 AM | #7 |
Late Istar
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The very fact that no one can agree on what represents what seems to me to indicate that there is no allegory; if there were, the parallels would be far easier to make. If I were forced to try and find parallels, I'd say that Mordor=Germany and Isengard=Russia. And of course the infamous Ring=nuclear weapons.
But none of that is really valid. Tolkien said quite explicitly that the book was not an allegory. Either he was right or he was lying. And no matter how hard one tries, one cannot quite make the story fit World War II perfectly. Who is Gandalf? Or Frodo? Or Aragorn? If the Ring is nuclear weapons, why was it initially created by Mordor then lost and found by the 'allies'? None of it stands up to close scrutiny. Of course, it is possible to find applicability to World War II. In Tolkien's use of the terms, a work is allegorical when the story itself serves merely as a front or analogy to something else; the story is not the important thing. If LotR were an allegory it would be about World War II. If a work is applicable that means that, because it is a well-constructed and internally realistic story, there are inevitably themes found in the work that are also found in real life. The Ring does not represent nuclear power. But the Ring is an artifact with great power, and thus it bears a relation to all power, in any form. |
04-01-2003, 01:30 PM | #8 | |
Seeker of the Straight Path
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Quote:
I am afraid this type of shallow speculation is deserving of a new term, 'quarter-baked'. Seriously folks, at least see if the darn analogies hold up to even one level of application! But of course it is undeniably true that Luxemborg represents the Druedain [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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04-01-2003, 05:34 PM | #9 | |
Dead Man of Dunharrow
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Keep in mind:
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There are no World War II parallels to be drawn. Is it asking so much to actually believe the Professor when he writes in reference to his own works? [ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]
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04-01-2003, 05:49 PM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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A few people have equated Isenguard with Russia. Don't you people know their history, Russia was on the side of the allies and was instrumental in defeating Germany. If there were one to one parallels with WWII (which I don't think there are), Isenguard would be an ally of Germany, Italy or Japan.
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04-01-2003, 07:23 PM | #11 | |
Late Istar
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But please don't take this as an endorsement of an allegorical interpretation! I meant quite the opposite. |
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04-01-2003, 09:24 PM | #12 |
Wight
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Bravo Aiwendil, you beat me to that historical snippet.
And in my opinion, whether one would claim The Lord of the Rings to be allegorical or not, it can still be possible to have paralells to the world wars. Every person no matter who they are are influenced in some way or another by the events surrounding their life and that helps to make them the people they are. Tolkien's life was affected by the world wars and it's reflected in his writings. Even going on a more basic point, the War of the Ring is filled with didacticism and inarguably has characteristics of any or all war, whether directly relating it specifically to any one war (which I agree that it doesn't) or not. Anyone's literary interpretations are as true as another's as long as they can back them up.
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04-01-2003, 09:47 PM | #13 |
Animated Skeleton
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I was drawing parallels and not in the whole trilogy, but in the Two Towers. This book seems to represent that. A little know fact (at least here) is that Russia was on the axis side and switched to the allied side. Anyway, Japan does seem better. But Rohan could have been parallel to Rohan because they were attaced first and received little aid, thinking Germany their friend until the attack. Also, Mordor represents as a whole the industrial revolution in Tolkien's words, but Mordor does not do much in this book in the way of battle. Anyway, i think that the Ents were definitely similar to the USA because we were originally Isolationist and then (after we were encroached upon) became severely ****ed off and shied away from our unhastiness if you will, and attacked. These parallels are loose, I admit, but I meant only in Two Towers, not beyond. Also, Gondor was the powerhouse and they were drawm back and weakened until Rohan aided them, so I see the Rohan=USA as well. Anyway, this is juse my musings and thoughts, so no need to get offensive yall.
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04-02-2003, 12:26 AM | #14 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Oh, of course Tolkien was influenced by events in his lifetime. But influences and allegories are two very different things. The first is uncontrolled and Tolkien (or anyone else for that matter) has absolutely no control over, the latter, however, is the choice of the author; he and only he has control over it and any allegory in his work is a choce of his own. However, I think that we all know (if we didn't already) that there are no allegories in LotR.
Son of Fire: Quote:
Well, given all that, why would Russia and Germany form a pact. If Russia was planning on becoming part of the axis, then they would have made an alliance, but they didn't. They made a pact because they needed time, and so did Germany. Read into a history book for more info, but the fact of the matter is that Russia was never a part of the Axis. Quote:
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[ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]
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04-02-2003, 06:06 AM | #15 |
Wight
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I dont think there are many parallels between ww2 and lotr, i think the only way most of you are finding them is by twisting history, come on russia a part of the axis?!?!?!?!?
[ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: the witch king ]
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04-02-2003, 06:20 AM | #16 | |
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A non-agression pact is not the same thing as being allied with it. Sorry if I came across as harsh up above, but I am really stunned at an attmpt to maintain 'LotR as WWII allegory; in the face of overwhlming evidence to the contrary, and a complete lack of evidence in favor. Maybe Estelyn will mercifully interven...
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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04-02-2003, 01:06 PM | #17 | |||
Spectre of Decay
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All of which doesn't have much to do with the issue, which is that Tolkien himself explicitly denied any analogies with the Second World War in the foreword to the second edition (included in all legal impressions since 1966). For the benefit of those who haven't got round to reading the foreword yet, here are a couple of quotations: Quote:
Quote:
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04-02-2003, 01:32 PM | #18 |
Animated Skeleton
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The parallels themselves do exist, and let me say it again, I HAD NO INTENTION OF CALLING THIS AN ALLEGORY, but was simply pointing out similarityies. Also i meant Rohan=Poland not Rohan=Rohan, my bad.
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04-02-2003, 02:48 PM | #19 |
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I apologize for the use of the word allegory, Son of Fire, but I am afraid there are no serious parallels to be found either [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], other than the most basic forms of applicability such as: Hitler is bad, Sauron is bad. America and England were good Rohan and Gondor were good.
And none of these simplistic parallels play out any further if you try and follow the supposed relationships. Welcome to the Downs Son of Fire - regardless of the WWII biz. I think you caught a few of us at our most prickly - there have been quite a few applicability/allegory tiffs lately it seems so you may have found the corn on the toes of the wights... [ April 02, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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04-02-2003, 06:22 PM | #20 | |
Late Istar
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Not valid are statements of the sort: "The Ring represents nuclear power" or "Rohan represents the U.S.A." Valid indeed are statements of the sort: "The theme of power and corruption that is illustrated by the Ring can also be seen with nuclear power" or "the theme of one nation coming to the aid of another in a time of need can be seen in both Rohan and the U.S.A." Then, once we are examining this kind of non-allegorical statement, we must address dissimilarities and discrepancies in the application of the theme, like the fact that Rohan came to the aid of Gondor in fulfillment of an ancient oath whereas the U.S. came to the aid of the Allies because it had been attacked. Words like "parallel" or "analogous" suggest the first kind of statment (allegorical), but could conceivably be meant to indicate the second. |
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04-02-2003, 07:17 PM | #21 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
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It's funny to watch how often threads like these are created, discussed to no apparent end, and then abandoned. So far most of the one's I've read have had unique starting topics, but are all drawn into the debate over allegory. Quite Humorous.
Iarwain
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04-02-2003, 11:26 PM | #22 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
And don't worry Son of Fire, we know what you mean now. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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04-03-2003, 03:04 PM | #23 | |
A Northern Soul
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[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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04-04-2003, 09:53 PM | #24 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
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Sometimes, but not usually. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Speculation makes a better, longer lived discussion. It allows sufficient room for the topic to be adjusted according to the discussion. The lack of utter clarity in a topic post can make people much more interesting and more interested than compared to a thread about a strict topic (subjects for such threads are running very low, and I haven't thought of one in a while...). But anyway, most things on this forum are fun or interesting (the ones that I participate in at least [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ), so it's all good. What I find particuliarly humorous about this thread is that I saw an almost exact replica of this discussion take place a few months back. The thread was something about numerology in the books. It too took an inevitable turn into the Allegory discussion, and the conversation stopped soon after... Iarwain
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04-06-2003, 06:52 AM | #25 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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But, following the above quote, once I heard that actually Japan was trying to bring radioactive material to Germany via a submarine, and that the US caught the submarine, took the Uran or Putonium and made their own nuclear bomb and attacked Japan with it. I don't know if this story is true, but if it is, it could be the explanation to the above question. On the other hand, I don't think that Tolkien could have known about the radioactive material, so my information is pretty useless. (Good work, Balin [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])
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04-06-2003, 11:53 PM | #26 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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We had three atom bombs towards the end of the second world war, at least one of them was plutonium and at least one was uranium, the third was either of the two. We used one as a test and then two on Japan.
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04-07-2003, 01:31 AM | #27 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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OK, this thread was very close to being off-topic from the start, but the last posts have nothing at all to do with Tolkien. Please delete your off-topic posts and post on-topic if you want this thread to stay open. Thanks!
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04-07-2003, 10:34 AM | #28 |
Animated Skeleton
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Okay, we were not able to produce plutonium until the late 50s. This thread is getting pretty dead because we all have our points of view, and I think we all agree that there is no alegory, but there are some events in TTT the book that closely parallel WWII, but maybe we'd better agree to disagree. I would gladly remove my unrelated post, by the way, if I knew how.
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04-07-2003, 11:30 AM | #29 | |
Animated Skeleton
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A quote, if I may, from Tolkien himself, taken from the Foreword to the Lord of the Rings itself, slightly edited to make it more in the context of the original discussion:
Quote:
Yeah, I know it's a good thing to agree to disagree and all that. There would always be boring discussions if we can't do that. However, Tolkien was very clear about the entire World War II thing, and I just wanted to remind one of that. Anyway, Pax and good cheer to all. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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04-07-2003, 11:45 AM | #30 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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04-07-2003, 12:01 PM | #31 |
Animated Skeleton
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I would have to apologize to [b]Bruce MacCulloch[b] and The Squatter of Amon Rûdh, because they really quoted the Foreword first in their posts. I commited the sin of not reading the entire discussion through. I apologize.
It is, uhm, notable though that inspite of posts with these quotes showing Tolkien saying, in effect, 'Look, WWII did not influence my writing, even if I admit that even I can be influenced. You see, I wrote all of this before WWII can influence me. Or even then, even if WWII never happened, the LotR will still show up the way you read it,' we still have discussions, and examples, on parallels. I agree, though, that parallels does not automatically mean allegory. To risk being Off-topic here, one can draw parallels between the current war and the Vietnam War, but it doesn't mean that that is allegory. Yet, c'mon! Isn't it kinda futile to still insist that there is some sort of 'one-to-one' correspondence in LotR and WWII? There are the good guys, there are the bad guys. There are the winners, there are the losers. There were the allies, there were the allies of the enemy. I could go on. As I said, it is really good to agree to disagree. But seeing parallels where it is only superficially and arbitrarily there (at best) or is practically non-existent is, well, fun (I have to admit) but not really honest. Pax. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ April 07, 2003: Message edited by: Gryphon Hall ]
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04-07-2003, 12:45 PM | #32 | ||||
Spectre of Decay
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I think that C.S. Lewis probably said it best:
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When we compare these views with the rather more positive outcome of The Lord of the Rings, it becomes much easier to see why no parallel can be more than superficial: the situations of the Ents, and of Rohan and Gondor are general ones, applicable as much to individual people as to countries, and to more than one historical situation. That seems to me the main objection to this search for correlations in the Second World War: it really tells us nothing about Tolkien, his work or the war itself, which as I have said above he regarded largely with despair.
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04-07-2003, 12:48 PM | #33 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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OK, it looks like there is nothing new and not likely anything Tolkien-related coming up on this thread, so I'm closing it.
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