Irony

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Can you think of anything at all ironic in Tolkien's works about Middle-earth? Well I can think of two right off the bat. First, there's Gollum. He ran in to Mt. Doom intending to save the ring (or possibly himself) from being destroyed. However, when he gets it, he falls in the cracks, and ends up destroying the ring and himself. And here is the other. Remeber when Merry got that nice dagger from the Barrow Downs? Well, that dagger was one that fought in the war against the Witch King of Angmar. There it was lying all those years in that Barrow, sitting. Then, Merry gets it and takes it with him all the way to the Pellenor fields. And that dagger was thrusted into the back of the Lead Ringwraith, who is the Witch King of Angmar. That causes enough distraction for Eowyn to kill the Raingwraith.

Well, as of now, that's all I can think of. Go ahead and post more examples and feel free to discuss these examples and any others.

[obloquy]

Main Entry: iro·ny
Pronunciation: 'I-r&-nE also 'I(-&)r-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirOnia, from eirOn dissembler
Date: 1502
1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony
2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play -- called also dramatic irony, tragic irony
synonym see WIT

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Ok wise guy. Need I explain how they are ironic? I am assuming that you posted that definition in regards to the dagger example. I'll explain it if I have to.

[Rumil]

Morgoth's crown, Grond, orc armour, Iron Hills - all very irony

(thats like coppery or silvery isn't it?)

[doug*platypus]

*sigh* don't be so ridiculous, Rumil! The examples that Willy is looking for are like rain on your wedding day, or a free ride when you've already paid.

[Nuranar]

I don't know, Willie. For your first, it may come down to what Gollum's true intentions are - and that in itself may be difficult to determine (i.e. Why did he follow Frodo and Sam? Was he planning to get the Ring back, or was he just watching to see what Frodo did with it?) But I do think that when he attacked Frodo after Frodo claimed it, Gollum was trying to take the Ring for himself. At that point, since Frodo had claimed it, the Ring was in no danger of being destroyed.

However, I think a case may yet be made for irony: Whatever Gollum's intentions were, his actions were calculated to cause anything but the destruction of the Ring. That in the end, he was the instrument of its destruction, is probably irony - "incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected [or intended] result."

As for Merry's sword, though...that is not irony. It is a wonderful plot development, more of a grand poetic justice: A blade wrought to wield against Angmar would, a thousand years later, be the downfall of its fell king. It also may illustrate the power of those who wrought it and how, although they were gone, their legacy was not ended. And under the One, there could be no coincidence.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I stand firm on both issues of irony. It is easier to see why on Gollum, but not so with the dagger. The dagger is irony.

Here is the definition of irony from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, from Houghton Mifflin.

i-ro-ny (i'r&-nE) n., pl. -nies.
1. The use of words to convey the opposite if their literal meaning. 2. An expression or utterance marked by such a deliberate contrast between apparant and intended meaning. 3. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. 4. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated." (Richard Kain). 5. An occurence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. 6. The dramatic effect achieved by leading an audience to understand an incongruity between a situation and the accompanying speeches, while the characters in the play remain unaware of the incongruity. 7. Feigned ignorance, as in the Socratic method of instruction. -See Synonyms at wit. [Latin ironia, from Greek eironeia, dissembling, feigned ignorance, from eiron, dissembler, "one who says less than he thinks," from eirein, to say. See wer-6 in Appendix.*]


Ok, take a look at 4., which states, "Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs." Now, that dagger had its day for battle, and its very old. You would have expected it to stay in that barrow and never face battle again, especially against the Witch King of Angmar. But what actually happens is that it goes into battle again, and fights the Witch King of Angmar. So, yes it is irony, but on a long shot. That is how I see it as irony.

And, doug*platypus is right. Thanks doug. I mean the other definition of irony, Rumil, not the one that pertains to the metal iron.

[Diamond18]

Keeping with the Witch-king, the fact that he thinks he is invincible because no man can kill him, but neglects to consider the loopholes and ends up being killed by a woman, is quite ironic.

The fact that an "insignificant" halfing (Frodo) accomplishes what great men and elves could not is another example of irony.

Also, in The Hobbit, I found it ironic that it is Bard of Lake-town who kills Smaug. One would assume (one did assume!) that the end of the story would come when Bilbo and the Dwarves confronted and defeated the Dragon. The Professor was too smart for this one, though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Nuranar]

I think I see what you mean, Willie. Yes, it's kind of a long shot, about the dagger. I was focusing on the dagger itself and its final end, not on the incidental circumstances. No, just off-hand you wouldn't expect a thousand-year-old dagger to suddenly appear and finish off a Ringwraith. But other than the circumstance of it being in the barrow, there's no overpowering reason to think that it can't. Also, Tolkien never writes of the dagger until it is brought out of the barrow. From then on it concerns us.

I apologize for any incoherency in this post; it's bedtime for me. Thank you for this discussion, though.

Diamond, very good instances! I knew I was missing something big. The one about the Witch-king and Éowyn is particularly good. He put his trust in the (prophecy? saying?) that no man could kill him, but therein was the catch that turned the whole thing back on him.

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Nuranar ]

[Rumil]

The dagger may be irony, but would it more correctly be described as steely?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

The dagger may be irony, but would it more correctly be described as steely?

YOU AGAIN! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Well, if you haven't got the picture yet, we are not discussing the definition of irony that involves the metal iron. It was kind of funny, but next time I will be annoyed, so please don't do it again.

The Witch King and Eowyn part reminds me of MacBeth. Anyone else notice it? Maybe Tolkien tried to give Shakespere a run for his money....hmmm....

[Amarinth]

i've always thought it an irony that, during the time when the armies of noldorin princes in beleriand were constantly laid to waste by morgoth, it took a half-elven woman and a man to get this close to morgoth and the silmarils.

and they do it with a song.

btw, next time anyone got just as close to morgoth, practically all of valinor emptied out.

peace, my fellow downers [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Amarinth ]

[doug*platypus]

And, doug*platypus is right. Thanks doug.

I think it's ironic that you thanked me, when I was just being stupid! Doesn't anyone listen to Alanis?!

The dagger is NOT irony. It would have been ironic if it was a dagger of Angmar that had killed him. Without referring to a dictionary (although if I did it would be Collins), I feel I have a pretty firm grasp of what irony is. To use a dagger whose stated purpose was the destruction of Angmar to kill the Witch-King is not ironic at all.

The chief example of irony in LOTR, which Gimli kindly points out, is the use of an army of ghosts to defeat Sauron's allies, using the devices of the enemy against him as the dwarf says.

There are also some potential candidates to be found on this thread.

[doug*platypus]

Here's a good one: anyone who has read the extremely lengthy description of the seven gates of Gondolin, each more fantastic, expensive, and better guarded than the last, will realise how ridiculous all that security was, when Morgoth just came through the back way!

And maybe the timing of the destruction of the Two Trees. Everyone was up the mountain at a festival praising Eru, allowing Morgoth time to commit some of his most hideous sins. If they hadn't been so pious, this might not have happened! Eru works in mysterious ways, though, and if it had not been for this act of Morgoth (and the fact he used a sword and not an axe), the sun and moon would never have come into being.

I don't even think that's Ironic. And most certainly not much of a point. They happen to be coincidence-i have recently read Christopher Tolkien's story of his dad, and he says many relate with each other, because that is how Tolkien wanted it. I am sure i noticed another similar sort of story as well in The Silmirilion.

[drigel]

I agree that the dagger is not ironic. There are some other great examples of irony on this thread though! well done

I would assume that there were hundreds if not thousands of such daggers and swords made that had those spells and inscriptions meant to be the bane of the witch king. If anything, it certainly wouldnt hurt to have a dagger like that, but i see it more of an irony that a wee little halfling dealt such a blow to the witchking

[HCIsland]

How about these?

Saruman chastises Gandalf for his smoking habit but becomes addicted to the stuff himself.

Saruman's favourite whipping boy, Wormtongue, is the one that kills him.

Saruman's obsession with obtaining the Ring himself helps to distract Sauron from the true path the Ring is taking, ultimately leading to it's destruction.

I think the ultimate irony is (as has already been mentioned) that the inhabitants of the one land that Sauron ignores as being too insignificant, are the beings that ultimately bite him in the *** .

H.C.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Well, good examples H.C.

About the dagger, it is irony. I have showed you why, and I do admit it is a long shot, but it is irony as it fits the definition.

[Diamond18]

It was ironic that the Ents, the Tree-shepherds, destroyed Isengard while Saruman was reveling in his powers over nature.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I think that there's a bit of playing fast and loose with irony going on here. It's a concept that is often mis-used. Alanis Morisette found this out with her song "Ironic", which was criticised for using many situations which weren't ironic at all.

I'm no expert, but I've done a bit of research and have been able to identify four broad categories of irony:

1) Socratic irony - As the definition above states, this is when someone deliberately asks seemingly ignorant questions and professes a willingness to learn, so as to expose the greater ignorance of the apparently wise person or people he is questioning.

2) Dramatic irony – Where the character in a play or book is unaware of what fate has in store for him, but the audience/reader is fully aware.

3) Rhetorical irony – Generally when we say something that has one apparent meaning, but is actually intended to convey another, often opposite, meaning. For example, saying on a cold, wet and windy day “Well, isn’t this just great weather? (opposite) or “Bit damp today, isn’t it” (understatement).

4) The irony of fate – Which is broadly what we are talking about here. It's a difficult one to define, but I think that it can best be described as a situation or event that has occurred naturally or unintentionally, but the timing or circumstances of which seem deliberately perverse, almost an act of malice on fate’s part, although, contrary to the usual dictionary definition, it doesn’t have to be incongruous or the opposite of what might be expected. An example is Alanis Morisette’s death row prisoner whose pardon comes 2 minutes late.

But something isn't ironic just because it is coincidental or unexpected or unfortunate. Consider Alanis Morisette's rain on a wedding day. That's not ironic, it's just bad luck, unless perhaps the wedding had deiberately been planned to take place somewhere where it hadn’t rained for 100 years or something.

The best example so far is Gollum’s situation, which is is ironic on two levels. First, he is the victim of irony of fate, in that he stumbles and falls into the volcano at just the moment he achieves his life’s ambition. Secondly, we can see dramatic irony in the character who most wanted the Ring not to be destroyed being the one who destroys it.

I think that Merry stabbing the Witch-King with the dagger from the Barrow is ironic, but only because it is combined with the Witch-King facing someone who is not bound by the prophecy concerning his apparent invulnerability. Of all the combatants that he might have come across on Pelennor Fields, he encounters a hobbit armed with a dagger specifically wrought to fight his former realm and Eowyn, the only person there who can beat his prophecy.

I'm not so sure that the other examples given so far sufficiently involve the concept of fate playing tricks on the victim to warrant the label irony. Otherwise, practically every coincidental or unexpected or unlucky situation becomes ironic, and irony ain't that liberal with its favours. For example, that it would be a Hobbit who brought the Ring to Mount Doom was unexpected, but not necessarily ironic. Similarly with Luthien and Beren stealing the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Also, both of these situations are deliberately brought about, wheras an ironic situation should occur naturally or unintentionally. I think the same applies with the Ents and Isengard, since they deliberately set out to destroy it.

But it does seem to me that practically the whole of Turin's life might be described as ironic. He brings doom on anyone who harbours him. He kills his best friend who has just rescued him. He marries his siter who just happens to have had her mind wiped by Glaurung and then stumbled into the realm where he is living. Or it would be ironic, if the whole thing had not been manipulated by Morgoth. It wasn't fate playing tricks on Turin, but the Dark Lord. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Thank you The Saucepan Man, for the definitions and the examples.

I still stand firm that the dagger is irony, but by a long shot. However, I don't care if you agree or not. So let's just let that be. If you don't look at it as ironic, then just don't discuss it, but if you do, go ahead and discuss it if you want. I just don't want huge arguments or getting off topic, as I am very busy.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Oh, yeah, I just found some more irony. I think that it is ironic how a ring symbolizes a never ending union (circle) and yet, it doesn't do that. The ring actually tears apart two people when it's meaning can convey the union of two people. Sam gives the ring back to Frodo, but Frodo views Sam as his enemy. However, it is also ironic how the ring tries to tear them apart, but in doing so, the become closer than ever. And it is also ironic how the ring's symbolism of union, especially with Sauron, is broken by the ring being destroyed.

However, this was no ordinary ring, and not really a marriage ring, so it might not be considered irony, although, I believe it does.

[The Saucepan Man]

Here we go again, Willie [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

If you don't look at it as ironic, then just don't discuss it, but if you do, go ahead and discuss it if you want.

I think it's valid, on a thread discussing irony in LotR to discuss whether examples put forward are ironic or not.

And anyway, I was kind of agreeing with you. I was trying to show how the dagger (or more particularly the use to which it is put) can be considered ironic.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Let me do some more "beating on the dead horse" on the topic of Merry's dagger...

Consider the following: If everything had gone to plan on the journey from Tom's house to Bree, Merry would never have gotten the dagger. But, the hobbits got lured into the barrow and attacked by the barrow-wight. And after being rescued by Tom, they ended up with the daggers, including the one Merry used to kill the Witch-King. If there hadn't been a wight in the barrow, Merry wouldn't have gotten the dagger..

But who caused the wight to be in the barrow, ultimately causing Merry to end up with the dagger?

The Witch-King!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Certainly this aspect of the story of Merry's dagger (one of the Witch-King's own spells helping to cause his undoing) is irony of the highest level. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Diamond18]

I simply thought that the Ents destroying Isengard would be ironic from Saruman's viewpoint, because he thought he had become (or at least was well on his way to becoming) all powerful over nature. But perhaps "irony" isn't the best way to describe that situation, and it's really just good old fashioned poetic justice.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Good examples everyone.

I really like Angry Hill Troll's example, and it's much better than mine. Don't hold back, even if you feel that a topic is old or used-up.

Good example Diamond18, now I get what you were saying. And by the by, nice avatar. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 07, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[HCIsland]

Don't hold back, even if you feel that a topic is old or used-up.

You asked for it. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

H.C.

[Angry Hill Troll]

HC Island,

LOL!!! (But please tell me that's not Bill the Pony, or I might have to report you to PETA) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[HCIsland]

I couldn't do that to poor Bill.

H.C.

[Lush]

The Witch King and Eowyn part reminds me of MacBeth. Anyone else notice it?

Yes.

[Naldoriathil]

Would you care to explain how? I myself had read Macbeth (admittedly a few years ago!) i am intrigued to see the link between Shakespeare and Tolkien.

[obloquy]

I think that Merry stabbing the Witch-King with the dagger from the Barrow is ironic, but only because it is combined with the Witch-King facing someone who is not bound by the prophecy concerning his apparent invulnerability. Of all the combatants that he might have come across on Pelennor Fields, he encounters a hobbit armed with a dagger specifically wrought to fight his former realm and Eowyn, the only person there who can beat his prophecy.

The thing is, it wasn't a prophecy of invulnerability. It was a prophecy of who would kill the Witch-King, not who could. The words were spoken originally by Glorfindel: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." This was not a spell to grant invulnerability, it was a prophecy of what would occur (again, not what could). The Witch-King made the same mistake on the field of Pelennor when he said, "No living man may hinder me!" Of course, as soon as Éowyn revealed who she was, the Witch-King was silent, "as if in sudden doubt." He realized he had misinterpreted. I think this fact robs the whole scenario of any irony that may have been squeezed from it.

[Grimbold]

I've only read the top of this thread so I'll say: drop the dictionary! The dictionary will not answer all! Focus on the main point of things! By the way, I love your point about the sword which finally brought about the Witch-king's end! Very very cool. Fate is handling everything in Arda, from the first day Gandalf knocked on Bilbo's door to the day Frodo awoke for the celebration in Cormallen.

[The Saucepan Man]

The thing is, it wasn't a prophecy of invulnerability.

Yes. I understood that, obloquy. Which is why I referred to apparent invulnerability. But, I hadn't realised that it was his actual death that had been prophesised. Thanks for that. And I agree, if it was prophesised, it cannot be ironic.

Naldoriathil, click on the "Yes" in Lush's post and all will be explained. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Angry Hill Troll]

Regarding MacBeth/LOTR, certainly there is a superficial resemblance to MacBeth in a different subplot of LOTR: The fight between the ents and Saruman. The ents marching on Isengard certainly is reminiscent of Birnham wood (used as camouflage) marching toward MacBeth's castle. Of course, there isn't any equivalent prophesy "Saruman shall never be overthrown, not until the trees of Fangorn forest march within the circle of Isengard." (that might have been to obvious a Shakespeare reference for Tolkien's taste)

The Witch-King and Eowyn story is in the general category of prophesies and their misinterpretation (not seeing the loopholes!!) MacBeth is a famous example of this, but there are many others, going back (at least) to ancient Greece.

One other (inadvertant) bit of irony involving the WK, when he tells Gandalf "this is my hour!" As someone pointed out in another thread,

it was his hour, just not in the way he had hoped.

[Lush]

Troll, the Ents are not a "superficial resemblance to Macbeth." It's an intentional resemblance. Click on the "YES" in my previous post to read more. It's a pretty cool trick of Tolkien's, actually.

[Aratlithiel]

I hope I'm not skewing any definitions here, but I've always thought it a rather bitter irony that Frodo goes on his journey in order to save the Shire and is then unable to dwell in it afterwards.

Diamond - love the new one, but miss Daffy terribly! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

it was his hour, just not in the way he had hoped.

That is SO (note, this word is spelled with one 'o') cool. I never noticed that before. Typical foreshadowing by Tolkien, but this example is very witty!

Back on the irony thing, Fëanor the spirit of fire, gets killed by the fire demon Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, after his temper leads him on the revenge trail to Middle-Earth. Talk about poetic justice!

[Angry Hill Troll]

Lush, I stand corrected, and agree with you completely! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I had intended to say "at least a superficial resemblance" and ended up sounding like I though it was only a superficial resemblance. Which I didn't, but wasn't completely convinced how deep it went. But now that I reflect for a moment on LOTR being written by a literary person in Britain, an uncanny parallel to a Shakespeare play can't have been coincidence! or it's coincidence in Tolkien's sense of not being accidental.

I hadn't read your thread before I posted (obviously). But the Fangorn-Birnam idea popped into by head spontaneously as soon as I heard LOTR and MacBeth in the same sentence. Congrats on having thought of it first. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Angry Hill Troll]

I'm pretty sure the original quote finding the irony in the WK's boast to Gandalf appeared inthis thread. But now the post seems to have disappeared [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I agree with Doug*p, it is a really clever touch. Unfortunately whoever pointed it out in the original thread seems to have been overlooked, as the thread got off topic. My compliments to the unknown person who thought of this originally.