scratching my head (Gimli and Legolas)

[the phantom]

(I'm sure there has to already be a thread about this, but I didn't find one. Then again I'm lazy and didn't try too hard.)

Why weren't Legolas and Gimli pals to begin with? They should've seen each other plenty before Rivendell. Think about it. Legolas is an elf from Mirkwood, Gimli is a dwarf from the Lonely Mt. The dwarves and elves in that region not only traded, but got along well. I recall a quote from near the end of The Hobbit- "..and there was friendship in those parts between elves and dwarves and men."

Those elves and dwarves got along well. Gimli wasn't a ruler, but he was fairly important (because of his relations), and we all know Legolas was son of the king, so it seems very natural that these two would have met on several occasions, likely social events.

Why, when all the circumstances pointed towards good, if not excellent, feelings between their peoples, would the two of them not demonstrate an instant bond of friendship, or at least respect?

[Legolas]

Legolas, being much older, would've lived in Mirkwood for quite a long time before Thorin and his company took back the Lonely Mountain. During that time, I'm sure he was taught that dwarves were sad, greedy creatures. I can't imagine Thranduil's wood-elves and the dwarves of the Lonely Mountain throwing parties together and such. Remember - dwarves slew the great king of the Sindar, Elu Thingol. That was not overlooked by the elves until Legolas/Galadriel become friends with Gimli.

[the phantom]

Yeah, I'm sure there were some bad feelings left over from Thingol's death, but those weren't the same dwarves.

Since that event ages ago, these dwarves had distanced themselves from that reputation, had they not?

In The Silmarilion where it talks about the Last Alliance and the battle against Sauron, it said that the kindred of Durin of Moria fought alongside the elves. Not only that, but they dealt a severe blow to the orcs in their later war vs Azog and company.

And on top of that, I'll bring up the quote from The Hobbit again "..there was friendship in those parts between elves and dwarves and men". It said that there was friendship, not bad feelings.

So, not only does the book say the two peoples had "friendship", but the slaying of Thingol thousands of years ago by some other group of dwarves seems a silly reason for bad feelings, especially considering all the good that Gimli's people had done.

Which brings me back to my original question. Why did it seem like such a strain for those two at first? They should've already been over this whole elf/dwarf thing.

[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Deathwail]

And while they may of meet before its pretty safe to say that seeing battle and facing death together would bring them a bit closer then say trading some Dwarf gold for Elf made weapons or something they may of done before.Plus both being proud warrior types its easy to think they dont keep alot of friends in the first place as most the time ppl around them die before they get to know them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lord of dor-lomin]

You've got a point, phantom. It seems to me as well that their respective peoples were very much over the elf/dwarf problem (as they should've been), but for some reason Gimli and Legolas as individuals were not.

What was their problem? Was it something personal with both of them? If so, then what?

[ElentariGreenleaf]

I'm glad legolas and gimli became friends. They could show middle earth that elves and dwarves should be frineds (except that most of the elves left. I wish they hadn't!)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Did Legolas and Gimli have particularly bad relations from the start? I'm not sure. And that whole Lothlorien thing could be explained by Gimli's initial wariness of Lothlorien.

I'm sorry but I don't have the book right now. If you can give some examples of Legolas and Gimli not getting along well then please do. I don't remember the two not getting along with each other any more so than they did with Boromir.

[Tarthang]

Phantom brings up an interesting point on why they didn't know each other prior to the Council of Elrond.
I've only read the first 4 books of the HOME series and don't know if JRRT has addressed this issue in any of the later books.
As far as the quote goes, perhaps "peace" is a better term than "friendship".
Or then again perhaps it was an oversight on JRRT's part, when writing about the Council of Elrond.

[Lindril Arvilya]

I agree. Peace, but not friendship. Two very different things. I took it as almost a political peace. As in "Ok, these Dwarves/Elves have helped us out in this war, so now our people are allied and we're all friends." Sure, the leader of the Dwarves/Elves can say this as an official decree, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on the attitudes of the individuals. It's like a kindergaten teacher telling two fighting kids to get along. Now they may not fight, but their fight is not annulled. It's not "forgive and forget". They've done each other wrong and they still remember.
Does every American want to wage war on Afghanistan? No, but their leader can make it out to be that it's unanimous.
I find it's a general friendship, yet the individuals may not yet be convinced.

[Kalimac]

Lindril, I wouldn't say that it was parallel to the Afghanistan situation at all (sorry, my brother may be sent there shortly, I'm a bit touchy about the subject). From the way Legolas and Gimli talk it's not such a fierce thing as all that, more like (as I said in another thread) the English and French, for example. They were allies in WWI and to some extent in WWII, but it didn't mean that all jokes about the other nationality immediately dried up or anything like that. On the contrary, they're alive and well. I'd say it's the same with the Elves and Dwarves; they're not about to declare open war on each other, but they reserve the right to say "Living in caves? Eh, trust the Dwarves for some idiocy like that," or whatever.

[The Saucepan Man]

Kalimac, I think you make an excellent point using the example of the English and the French (I speak as an Englishman).

We have been allies in two World Wars in the last 100 years and, in the last 50 years or so have developed an increasingly close trading relationship (as members of the European Union). Many English people regularly visit and take thir holidays in France. And yet, there remain people in England who are wary or distrustful of the French or who just plain dislike them for whatever reason (and vice versa, I'm sure). In fact a close trading relationship brings its own reasons for disagreement (the Common Agricultural Policy, for example).

So the analogy with the relationship between the Elves of Northern Mirkwood and the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain is an extremely good one. They have fought together and traded together, and yet there is still bound to be distrust and enmity between individual members of each society.

Perhaps the friendship between Legolas and Gimli can give hope that people of different cultures and traditions can learn to get on with one another.

Oh, that got way too deep. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Sorry!

[Lindril Arvilya]

I do apologize, Kalimac.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

It really wasn't friendship all that much I don't think. It was more peace as Tarthang said. The dwarves and the elves were grudging each other in The Hobbit, but there was a clear and present danger. The goblins came, and both elves and dwarves hated the goblins, so instead of fighting against each other, they took care of the goblins first. It was an alliance or actually like a treaty, coalition, or pact. They fought together to get rid of the goblins. After that, everything was settled, it wasn't like they fought. I mean that would be so awkward. They very well could have fought after that. Take for example WWII. The U.S. and the USSR did not like each other one bit, but they put their ifferences aside to fight against Hitler, which at the time was the clear and present danger. After that, they got into the cold war. But the point is that, the elves and dwarves based their 'friendships' on a clear and present danger.

After that, they didn't get into a war, but it was highly possible. Trade would obviously benefit them more than war would. They lived peacefully in their area, benefiting off each other, rather than fighting. And besides, the person (dwarf) who was the most stubborn as to giving the elves any treasure was Thorin, who died during the battle of the five armies. So with Thorin gone, I think the other dwarves were willing to comprimise and appease rather than to fight again.

And even if they were peaceful, they could still hold grudges. They don't forget age old things like that. Take for example the Irish and the English. That war went on for about a thousand years. They are not fighting now, but that doesn't mean that they like each other. The elves and the dwarves could very well still hate each other, but rather than fight, they use peace and trade too their advantage. Also, if Gimli and Legolas knew of what happpened, it is most likely that they were brought up by their parents knowing that the other race is wrong and that they started it and all that other stuff. So, even though there was peace, that doesn't mean they forgot the age old grudge.

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Raefindel]

Phantom, to give you an answer to your question, I found only one direct argument between Legolas and Gimli, (there may be more, but where they may be I don't remember). This is a quote from the chapter "A Journey in the Dark" as the company stands before the Gates of Moria. Gandalf is the first speaker:

"...Those were happier days,when there was still close friendship at times between folk of different race, even between Dwarves and Elves."

"It was not the fault of the Dwarves the the friendship waned," said Gimli.

"I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves," said Legolas.

"I have heard both," said Gandalf; "and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both..."

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[Raefindel]

Oh wait! I just found another. This is a quote from the chapter "Lothlorien". It is following Legolas' song of Nimrodel.

The voice of Legolas faltered and Legolas ceased. "I cannot sing anymore," he said. "That is but a part, and I have forgotten much. It is long and sad, for it tells how sorrow came upon Lothlorien, Lorien of the Blossom, when the Dwarves awakened evil in the mountains."

"But the Dwarves did not make the evil," said Gimli.

"I said not so; yet evil came," answered Legolas sadly.

And there is one more, but Haldir was involved. Legolas and Haldir made arrangements (without Gimli's knowledge) to bind Gimli's eyes as they went through Lothlorien. Haldir is the first speaker...

"And as was agreed, I shall here blindfold the eyes of Gimli the Dwarf. The others may walk free for a while, until we come nearer to our dwellings, down in Egladil, in the Angle between the waters."

This was not at all to the liking of Gimli. "The agreement was made without my consent," he said. "I will not walk blindfold, like a beggar or a prisoner. And I am no spy. My folk have never had dealings with any of the servants of the Enemy. Neither have we done harm to the Elves. I am no more likely to betray you than Legolas, or any other of my companions."

"I do not doubt you," said Haldir. "Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside. I have done much in letting you set foot over Celebrant."

Gimli was obstinate. He planted his feet firmly apart, and laid his hand upon the haft of his axe. "I will go free," he said, "or I will go back and seek my own land, where I am known to be true of word, though I perish alone in the wildreness."

"You cannot go back," said Haldri sternly. "Now you have come thus far, you must be brought before the Lord and the Lady. They shall judge you, to hold you or to give you leave, as they will. You cannot cross the rivers again, and behind you there are now secret sentinels that you cannot pass. You would be slain before you saw them."

Gimli drew his axe from his belt. Haldir and his companion bent their bows. "A plague on Dwarves and their stiff necks!" said Legolas.

"Come! said Aragorn. "If I am to lead this Company, you must do as I bid. It is hard upon the Dwarf to be thus singled out. We will all be blindfold, even Legolas. That will be best, though it will make the journey slow and dull."

Gimli laughed suddenly. "A merry troop of fools we shall look! Will Haldir lead us all on a string, like many blind beggars with one dog? But I will be content, if only Legolas here shares my blindness."

"I am an Elf and a kinsman here," said Legolas, becoming angry in his trun.

"Now let us cry 'A plague on the stiff necks of Elves!' " said Aragorn. "But the company shall all fare alike. Come, bind our eyes, Haldir!"

The rift between Legolas and Gimli was mended in Lothlorien.

Legolas was away much among the Galadrim, and after the first night he did not sleep with the other companions, though he returned to eat and talk with them. Often he took Gimli with him when he went abroad in the land, and the others wondered at this change.

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Now, I hear jokes in English media EVERY SINGLE DAY making light fun of the French, the Welsh, the Scottish, the Irish. I also hear it in the Scottish media, and if the pattern continues, good lord, it also happens in every other country.

Now, when citizens of the country actually take these jokes on board and become indifferent and even hostile towards other nations, we have a problem.

Its narrow-minded, its completely useless, and its totally stupid.

And its true to say that while reading Tolkien's books, I was most disappointed with these Elves who made fun of the Dwarves and vice versa.

[Rumil]

Remember at the council of Elrond, Gloin brings up his imprisonment by Thranduil. Perhaps the 'Gloinses' had a particular grudge against the 'Thranduils' due to this past insult.

[Jellinek]

It is not unheard of that the common people of two nations, that live close together and have to deal with eachother in daily life get along fine, while the official stance between the countries/regions/people is less friendly.

Legolas' royal descent could be the problem here. I would assume he was raised with all protocol, traditions and history of his people. This would probably influence his view on dwarves. The same could be true (though to a lesser extent(?)) for Gimli.

Just my 2 cents..

[doug*platypus]

Perhaps the 'Gloinses' had a particular grudge against the 'Thranduils'

O Gimli, Gimli, wherefore art thou Gimli? Renounce thy father and refuse thy name!
*flutters eyelashes*

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

As somebody said, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Elves of Mirkwood were allies, and they traded, and helped each other in war (I think). This does not mean that they would be at all friendly with one another. There always seemed to be emnity, of a sort, between Elves and Dwarves.

I would also like to point out their family backgrounds: Thranduil, Legolas's father, in "The Hobbit" caught the Dwarves trespassing his land, and stopping his people's merry making, at least this is how he saw it.
Gloin, Gimli's father, was apart of the company going to the Lonely Mountain. During his trek through Mirkwood, he got captured by both spiders, and the elves. He had been imprisoned quite some time in the Halls of Thranduil, so, wouldn't that make you a bit resentful to the elves? Even if the elves apologized, which I'm not sure they did, wouldn't you be a little angry?

Furthermore, Legolas would naturally take his father's point of view, as Gimli would take his father's.

That Is Why Theyt Resent Each Other.