14 companions....1 dragon... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aragorn_the_Ranger · 10-14-2002, 10:20 PM

In the "Hobbit" how on middle-earth did the dwarves think that they were going to kill Samug. Of course some of the dwarves had knives and Thorin and Bilbo had their swords but they never knew that they were going to find them.They had Bilbo as a theif and they Gandalf wasn't gonna be there to fight the dragon so HOW were they going to kill Samug. By the way who was the oldest out of the dwarves apart from Thorin.

Kalimac · 10-14-2002, 10:38 PM

I think Balin was the oldest, but not 100% sure. As for killing Smaug - well, the whole book is littered with cheery references like Gandalf's telling the Dwarves that he doesn't really expect to see them again after they enter Mirkwood and how unlikely it is that they'll ever get there; granted that Gandalf is presented as a (somewhat) less serious sort of wizard here, there's still a strong feeling that for the Dwarves it's all about the journey and not about the end. They don't seem to know themselves what they'll do when they get there, even Thorin is so consumed by his desire for vengeance on the creature that destroyed his ancestral home that he doesn't think things through very practically.

Witness the Dwarves' behavior once they reach the Mountain. Then don't really seem to know where to go from there. They're brave, but not exactly full of forethought. They go up to the "doorstep", and Bilbo is the one who has to point it out to them when the keyhole appears. Bilbo goes down and gets the cup, and they are rejoice and then get rather cranky with him for not being able to do more, as if one hobbit could. And the Dwarves are weirdly passive throughout the last adventures; they never even seem to think of making plans for sneaking in and killing Smaug while he's asleep, for example. And once he leaves the mountain they're locked up inside (not their fault, really) until the whole show with Bard is over and the dragon is dead, thus conveniently solving their problem. And even THEN all Thorin can do is sit on top of his newfound pile and refuse to treat with the others who want a share of it. He can't see twenty-four hours into the future, once the Mountain is reached.

As for what they would have done if Smaug had not fortuitously decided to fly out over town and expose himself, who's to say. Thorin may well have sent for Dain to help him out; it's easier to see Dain being enlisted than the Lake-men. But how to kill the dragon who insists on staying inside his treasure-trove, the only think I can think of is a sneak attack while he's asleep - or awake, if they really want to kill themselves - or luring him out and then shooting at the weak spot Bilbo saw, and the Dwarves don't seem to be great ones for archery.

HerenIstarion · 10-15-2002, 02:52 AM

Well said. The whole thing was inspired by Gandalf, who played on Thorin's vindictive feelings, but he haven't got clear plan at all. Motto was kind of "let us begin, and than we'll see".

Quote:

You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'

UT, Quest of Erebor

Gandalf's thoughts just before he met Thorin. That's the reason why he left Thorin & Co, and why he came back.

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

akhtene · 10-15-2002, 06:03 PM

HerenIstarion , thanks for the 1person quote. I think I've seen a similar story in the Appendix
Perhaps it's yet another example of predetermination in Tolkien's books. It was a chance meeting - I mean the one of Gandalf and Thorin in Bree - but as they both were hoping for something like that, they must have believed that it was fate helping their schemes. The motto could as well be "Do what must and come what may"

doug*platypus · 02-15-2003, 04:26 AM

After reading Unfinished Tales, the issue becomes somewhat less clouded.

Burglary was intended from the first. No, the Dwarves never intended to kill Smaug. They did not have an army strong enough, and all the heroes were either dead and buried, or busy in foreign parts. If murder had been their intent, Bilbo would not have been hired.

How they expected to burgle (wow, that's a funny word!) all the hoard of Smaug is a mystery. But remember, even if they only recovered the Arkenstone, the mission would have been a success.

In the event, however, their coming to Erebor triggered a chain of events that did lead to the death of Smaug. An important lesson for us all - no matter how great the odds, try your best and you never know what may happen. I love The Hobbit.

Hookbill the Goomba · 02-15-2003, 06:04 AM

I often wondered this too. I came up with several ideas as to what they may do, but none of them are very good.
For example; they dig underneath smouge and steel the treasure from beneath him.
But I think he would realise that his treasure was disappearing rapidly. Perhaps Thorin had a plan to use Gandalf to kill him. But he never said so, and when Gandalf went away, he would have been worried.
The fact is that no body really knows except Tolkien himself who took the secret to his grave… unless he wrote it down somewhere... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

aragornreborn · 02-15-2003, 11:33 AM

I was of the opinion, too, that the Dwarves never intended to kill Smaug. But, I also like the theory that they hadn't really thought about it. Obviously Gandalf wanted them to kill the dragon, so he might have told Thorin that he must kill the dragon. If that is the case, then Thorin and co. really are stupid. Maybe Gandalf did not reveal his plans and just hoped that the dragon would be killed, but that doesn't sound like him. That would leave too much to chance. Maybe Gandalf had a plan but didn't have a chance to do anything about it. Hmmmm. Good question.

Dain · 02-15-2003, 02:30 PM

I think the reason Thorin and co. are so indecisive is to make Bilbo the real hero of the book, which is rather more a children's tale than the LotR, of course. So I never read that much into it, because though it came out as being in the same world, it isn't as true and well-planned as the three later books. That said, any plans the Dwarves had got ruined mighty quick--they lost all their gear in the mountains, and got captured by trolls, goblins, spiders and then Elves. I think they are a bit more bumbling than they probable would really be, but they are definitely brave--with the right motivation.

Gandalf probably knew something lucky would happen to Smaug, and so probably persuaded Thorin that he didn't need to worry much about a real plan--Thorin was so dead-set on going that it probably didn't take too much convincing. Burglary was definitely the makeshift plan they came up with, but how that was ever going to satiate the dwarves...

Nobody would be foolish enough to try to attack Smaug "in his sleep"--he almost roasts Bilbo, even with the ring!

Balin was the second oldest, then Dwalin, closely followed by Oin, then Gloin. I assume they are all older than any of the others, since they seem to be so. They are the only dwarves with dates, as far as I know... Fili and Kili are definitely the youngest "by 50 years" and that leaves about 30 years between Gloin and Fili for the rest to fill in, maybe? Anyway, that's off topic, but it's my favorite subject...

[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

eldomeldo · 03-22-2003, 05:09 PM

I do not believe that the Dwarves intention was to kill Smaug, I think Thorin, led this adventure because of his desire to regain the Arkenstone. I don't think Gandalf actually had a plan for getting rid of Smaug, but I do think that Gandalf was far sighted enough to realise that if the dwarves and Bilbo, succeeded in getting into the mountian, then other events would take over and Smaug would be destroyed. I also think the Gandalf picked a hobbit to go with the dwarves, because Smaug did not know the smell. So Bilbo would be able to wander into Smaug's lair when he was out, and smaug would not have known what had been there.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-23-2003, 04:03 AM

Yeah, the dwarves never really thought about how things would be done when they got there. I think it was just about the journey, just to get there. Then it was for the treasure, but I also think that it was for their revenge. Remember, their family of dwarves ahd been driven out of there by Samaug, and he killed a great many of their people. I think they just wanted to get revenge, by killing Smaug. And I don't think they cared if they died trying.

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

akhtene · 03-25-2003, 11:34 PM

If not for Gandalf, who must posess forsight as one of the spirits of the world (though really much lighter portrayed in 'the Hobbit'), I'd say that all of them are typical ... Russians [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] , relying on just avos' - sheer luck or off-chance. Look, Gandalf has to disturb and distract the dragon, in any way possible. He believes the dwarves can cope with it, if with nothing else. The dwarves probably rely on Gandalf and Bilbo picked by Gandalf. And Bilbo must believe that as he's been chosen, he'll be told what to do. That much for any plans [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: akhtene ]

10-14-2002, 10:20 PM	#1
Aragorn_the_Ranger Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 70	14 companions....1 dragon... In the "Hobbit" how on middle-earth did the dwarves think that they were going to kill Samug. Of course some of the dwarves had knives and Thorin and Bilbo had their swords but they never knew that they were going to find them.They had Bilbo as a theif and they Gandalf wasn't gonna be there to fight the dragon so HOW were they going to kill Samug. By the way who was the oldest out of the dwarves apart from Thorin.

10-14-2002, 10:38 PM	#2
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I think Balin was the oldest, but not 100% sure. As for killing Smaug - well, the whole book is littered with cheery references like Gandalf's telling the Dwarves that he doesn't really expect to see them again after they enter Mirkwood and how unlikely it is that they'll ever get there; granted that Gandalf is presented as a (somewhat) less serious sort of wizard here, there's still a strong feeling that for the Dwarves it's all about the journey and not about the end. They don't seem to know themselves what they'll do when they get there, even Thorin is so consumed by his desire for vengeance on the creature that destroyed his ancestral home that he doesn't think things through very practically. Witness the Dwarves' behavior once they reach the Mountain. Then don't really seem to know where to go from there. They're brave, but not exactly full of forethought. They go up to the "doorstep", and Bilbo is the one who has to point it out to them when the keyhole appears. Bilbo goes down and gets the cup, and they are rejoice and then get rather cranky with him for not being able to do more, as if one hobbit could. And the Dwarves are weirdly passive throughout the last adventures; they never even seem to think of making plans for sneaking in and killing Smaug while he's asleep, for example. And once he leaves the mountain they're locked up inside (not their fault, really) until the whole show with Bard is over and the dragon is dead, thus conveniently solving their problem. And even THEN all Thorin can do is sit on top of his newfound pile and refuse to treat with the others who want a share of it. He can't see twenty-four hours into the future, once the Mountain is reached. As for what they would have done if Smaug had not fortuitously decided to fly out over town and expose himself, who's to say. Thorin may well have sent for Dain to help him out; it's easier to see Dain being enlisted than the Lake-men. But how to kill the dragon who insists on staying inside his treasure-trove, the only think I can think of is a sneak attack while he's asleep - or awake, if they really want to kill themselves - or luring him out and then shooting at the weak spot Bilbo saw, and the Dwarves don't seem to be great ones for archery. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

10-15-2002, 06:03 PM	#4
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	HerenIstarion , thanks for the 1person quote. I think I've seen a similar story in the Appendix Perhaps it's yet another example of predetermination in Tolkien's books. It was a chance meeting - I mean the one of Gandalf and Thorin in Bree - but as they both were hoping for something like that, they must have believed that it was fate helping their schemes. The motto could as well be "Do what must and come what may" __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

02-15-2003, 04:26 AM	#5
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	After reading Unfinished Tales, the issue becomes somewhat less clouded. Burglary was intended from the first. No, the Dwarves never intended to kill Smaug. They did not have an army strong enough, and all the heroes were either dead and buried, or busy in foreign parts. If murder had been their intent, Bilbo would not have been hired. How they expected to burgle (wow, that's a funny word!) all the hoard of Smaug is a mystery. But remember, even if they only recovered the Arkenstone, the mission would have been a success. In the event, however, their coming to Erebor triggered a chain of events that did lead to the death of Smaug. An important lesson for us all - no matter how great the odds, try your best and you never know what may happen. I love The Hobbit. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

02-15-2003, 06:04 AM	#6
Hookbill the Goomba Alive without breath Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla Posts: 5,912	I often wondered this too. I came up with several ideas as to what they may do, but none of them are very good. For example; they dig underneath smouge and steel the treasure from beneath him. But I think he would realise that his treasure was disappearing rapidly. Perhaps Thorin had a plan to use Gandalf to kill him. But he never said so, and when Gandalf went away, he would have been worried. The fact is that no body really knows except Tolkien himself who took the secret to his grave… unless he wrote it down somewhere... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...

02-15-2003, 11:33 AM	#7
aragornreborn Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 182	I was of the opinion, too, that the Dwarves never intended to kill Smaug. But, I also like the theory that they hadn't really thought about it. Obviously Gandalf wanted them to kill the dragon, so he might have told Thorin that he must kill the dragon. If that is the case, then Thorin and co. really are stupid. Maybe Gandalf did not reveal his plans and just hoped that the dragon would be killed, but that doesn't sound like him. That would leave too much to chance. Maybe Gandalf had a plan but didn't have a chance to do anything about it. Hmmmm. Good question. __________________ At the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. - Phil. 2:10-11

02-15-2003, 02:30 PM	#8
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	I think the reason Thorin and co. are so indecisive is to make Bilbo the real hero of the book, which is rather more a children's tale than the LotR, of course. So I never read that much into it, because though it came out as being in the same world, it isn't as true and well-planned as the three later books. That said, any plans the Dwarves had got ruined mighty quick--they lost all their gear in the mountains, and got captured by trolls, goblins, spiders and then Elves. I think they are a bit more bumbling than they probable would really be, but they are definitely brave--with the right motivation. Gandalf probably knew something lucky would happen to Smaug, and so probably persuaded Thorin that he didn't need to worry much about a real plan--Thorin was so dead-set on going that it probably didn't take too much convincing. Burglary was definitely the makeshift plan they came up with, but how that was ever going to satiate the dwarves... Nobody would be foolish enough to try to attack Smaug "in his sleep"--he almost roasts Bilbo, even with the ring! Balin was the second oldest, then Dwalin, closely followed by Oin, then Gloin. I assume they are all older than any of the others, since they seem to be so. They are the only dwarves with dates, as far as I know... Fili and Kili are definitely the youngest "by 50 years" and that leaves about 30 years between Gloin and Fili for the rest to fill in, maybe? Anyway, that's off topic, but it's my favorite subject... [ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ] __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.

03-22-2003, 05:09 PM	#9
eldomeldo Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: wales Posts: 13	I do not believe that the Dwarves intention was to kill Smaug, I think Thorin, led this adventure because of his desire to regain the Arkenstone. I don't think Gandalf actually had a plan for getting rid of Smaug, but I do think that Gandalf was far sighted enough to realise that if the dwarves and Bilbo, succeeded in getting into the mountian, then other events would take over and Smaug would be destroyed. I also think the Gandalf picked a hobbit to go with the dwarves, because Smaug did not know the smell. So Bilbo would be able to wander into Smaug's lair when he was out, and smaug would not have known what had been there.

03-23-2003, 04:03 AM	#10
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Yeah, the dwarves never really thought about how things would be done when they got there. I think it was just about the journey, just to get there. Then it was for the treasure, but I also think that it was for their revenge. Remember, their family of dwarves ahd been driven out of there by Samaug, and he killed a great many of their people. I think they just wanted to get revenge, by killing Smaug. And I don't think they cared if they died trying. [ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ] __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

03-25-2003, 11:34 PM	#11
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	If not for Gandalf, who must posess forsight as one of the spirits of the world (though really much lighter portrayed in 'the Hobbit'), I'd say that all of them are typical ... Russians [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] , relying on just avos' - sheer luck or off-chance. Look, Gandalf has to disturb and distract the dragon, in any way possible. He believes the dwarves can cope with it, if with nothing else. The dwarves probably rely on Gandalf and Bilbo picked by Gandalf. And Bilbo must believe that as he's been chosen, he'll be told what to do. That much for any plans [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: akhtene ] __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

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