Bilbo, Gollum and Sam

[Merigrin]

In advance I want to say that I'm sorry if this has been asked before, (but I have 'flu and cant be bothered searching).
When Bilbo gave up the ring age began to catch up with him, was this the case with Gollum? It doesnt seem to mention, and if his did in what way would it effect him because he had the Ring for an awfully long time?
And how come Sam could give the ring back to Frodo so easily? Why wouldnt he try to take it off Frodo when he was (Ok wasn't) about to cast it into the fire's of mount doom?

Maybe Gollum had it so long it twisted him. And I think Sam could give it back so easily because he knew what was right adn he didn't have it that long either.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Sam did not have the ring for so long so it could not really 'corrupt' Sam. At that point, Sam's loyalty to Frodo was greater than the desire of the ring. I don't have my book w/me so sorry if I'm wrong about this part, but I don't think Sam ever put on the ring, he only held it. And I'm sorry if I'm wrong once again, but I think that Sma had a brief struggle with the ring, but Sam resisted it. So Sam had it for too little a time to really want it back, or in that case, to not give it back.

As for the whole Gollum/Bilbo question, the reason might have to do with how long they had the ring for. Gollum had it for a really long tome, so his age might take longer to catch up with him. Whereas Bilbo didn't have it for as long, so age might have crept up quicker.

And maybe age creeps up to those that willingly give up the ring. For them, they are 'over' it. Bilbo gave it up, so he gave up all the benefits of having it as well, i.e. prolonged life. But gollum lost it, he did not choose to give it up. I think that a part of the ring still lingered in gollum. it kept age from creeping up on him while it kept the desire. And although Bilbo did give it up, it was like a drug and the ring can be tempting, so he still wanted it, but he did not seek it, like gollum.

Hope that helps.

[Orual]

I agree with Willie on the Bilbo/Gollum thing. But Sam did put on the Ring; he used it to hide from some orcs, I believe. I'm not sure about this either, but I do seem to remember something about Sam pulling off the Ring...and something about the Ring sharpening his senses. Sam was able to give the Ring to Frodo because, though it tempted him, he realized that it was all lies and deceit and he had seen what it had done to Frodo and Gollum. Besides, his love and concern for Frodo overruled all his other emotions and drives. My Sam.

~*~Orual~*~

Ya, he did put it on. When the Orcs picked up Frodo, he put it on and tried to follow them.

[Merigrin]

I love willie's idea about Gollum and Bilbo, it makes perfect sense, even through flu ridden eyes. As for sam, it's still puzzling, if I remember Smeagol killed Deagol for the ring without having touched it, so maybe Sam had more good in him than the average "person" or maybe his loyalty and love for a friend was more powerful, in a sense, than the ring it's self.

[Orual]

I'm sorry you're sick, Merigrin. I hope you get better soon.

I think that Tolkien had Sam give the Ring back to Frodo so easily to emphasize his complete and total loyalty toward Frodo, as well as his simplicity and humility. I think that the very fact that it wasn't a big production drives home the fact that it was a part of Sam's character. It wasn't like Tolkien went "Look at THIS! Sam's giving the Ring back to Frodo with hardly any hesitation! See? See?" He did it very quietly, with no glitz or glamour, as though it was a very natural thing--which it was. Sam didn't want to rule Middle-earth. He didn't want glory or fame. He just wanted to go home. Giving the Ring back to Frodo so freely just kind of summarized that attitude.

~*~Orual~*~

[hobbitlass]

Another thing that makes Sam totally unique from Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo is that he is the only one that 'inherits' the ring knowing full well what it is. He also has the advantage of seeing what the corruption had done to Gollum and what it is doing to Frodo. The three (Gollum Bilbo Frodo), never saw the corruption or at least recognized it for what it was.
Because of his strong character and advantages of seeing what the power of the ring can do, I feel that Sam is the only one who could have given up the ring so easily. If he couldn't, then no one could and there would be no hope.

[greyhavener]

I'm intrigued with the question about Gollum aging. I'd love to see that pursued here. I need to think about it for awhile.

On Sam, I think in addition to his deep loyalty to Frodo, Sam was affected by the elves. He had a life-long fascination with them and I believe his encounters with them resulted in a faith in them that approached the intensity of his loyalty to Frodo.

Consider Sam's experiences in Shelob's cave. I think it was he who reminded Frodo that they had Galadriel's light. Sam used Frodo's elvin blade to disable Shelob then Sam used the light again. When Shelob's threat would have been sure death for him, Sam called out to Galadriel for help and spoke in a elvin tongue he didn't understand. This resulted in Shelob's retreat.

In Sam's one experience with putting on the ring, he felt "exposed" and felt it's weight. He was tempted:
He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forget the Ring...or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold...Already the Ring tempted him...In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden. While he didn't completely understand "this story we are in", he accepted the authority of Gandalf and the elves in their assessment of the ring as an evil that must be destroyed and the role of the Fellowship in it's destruction. He further accepted his own role in this quest and did not seek to enlarge it, passing the same test that Galadriel passed.

[ December 31, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[ December 31, 2002: Message edited by: greyhavener ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Thanks Merigrin, I also hope you get better.

All I have is one question:

Do you think that the light helped Sam at all against the ring?

And good point hobbitlass.

[Merigrin]

I think so, light can after all help you to see, and that is what sam did. Maybe the simplicity of Sam, what he wanted in life, together with the Light made him the strongest and able to give the ring up, because it wasnt what he wanted.

[doug*platypus]

Sam didn't have the Ring for long enough to fully feel its pull. Remember, he did suggest to Frodo that he keep it for a while. Perhaps the Ring was working to ensnare Sam, by convincing him that he would be helping Frodo by keeping the Ring. Sam, I'm sure would have been very resistant to the Ring, but I fear that eventually even he would have fallen. What would Sam do if he was in a situation where he could only save Frodo by giving in completely to the power of the Ring?

Gollum could not live without the Ring, much as he might have wanted to. Sam had not possessed it as long, and didn't crave it as badly, which is why he didn't attack Frodo at the Sammath Naur.

I'm a little confused as to why Gollum didn't turn to "dussst" after losing the Ring. Maybe its power still worked on him. Remember also that the movie made much more out of Bilbo's sudden ageing than the book did!

[akhtene]

Just a couple of thoughts in the middle of the night...

"why Gollum didn't turn to "dussst" after losing the Ring"? I think while keeping the Ring for about 500 years he long ago outlived that time when his real age could catch up with him. He couldn't simply die of old age (FAR TOO old for that [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) It's like he got stuck between a mortal state and that of a wraith - transformed mentally and partly physically.

The Ring and hobbits: I somehow believe that the Ring appealed not to the evil side of its keeper's nature, but to its dominant trait (eventually making good use of it). In Smeagorl's case those were greed and meannes, the soul ready for corruption.
With Sam it was different. He wanted only good for Frodo, so he took the Ring to continue Frodo's quest (thinking him dead), used it to resque Frodo, offered to carry the Ring to lighten Frodo's burden and gave it back seeing what distress the offer causse. Most probably given time the Ring could make good use even of such devotion, but...it simply wasn't given time.

[Lady Of Light]

It seems to me that Gollum/Smeagol had a weaker soul than most. And he started as a hobbit-like creature, while Bilbo, Sam, and Frodo held up quite well against the ring's power (but for Frodo at the very end, but that was totally inevitable.) Gollum had the ring for hundreds of years, longer than any of the four, and that allowed it's power to take complete control over him. It became an obsession, a never-ending search for his "precious". Gollum was tied to the ring probably almost as much as the ring-wraiths. If he had not been thrown into the Cracks of Doom with the ring, I believe that he would have died when it was destroyed. It was all that he lived for, and though he faced starvation and death, he kept up his search. It was not so much food that sustained him, it was the ring.
Bilbo only had it for sixty-one years, a comparatively small amount of time. And while he did not wish to give up the ring, he realized what was best for the world. He was obviously made of stronger stuff than Gollum, who killed his friend at the very sight of the ring. He began to age faster immediately because he did not care for the ring as Gollum did, he let it go.
Sam did not have a completely easy time with the lust of the ring. He even saw himself for a moment as a great shining warrior, using the ring as the source of his power. He liked that image very much, but he came back to earth and realized that Frodo was the ring-bearer, and that he could never use the ring for good. Yay for Sam!

[doug*platypus]

He began to age faster immediately because he did not care for the ring as Gollum did, he let it go.

Excellent point, Lady. It seems, as I hinted at earlier, that the Ring must have still had power over Gollum, not only to arouse a desire for It in him, but to continue to prolong his life. It would only have been when the Ring was destroyed that he would have ceased to exist, which he somehow knew. So Gollum's very existence depended on him getting the Ring back before Frodo could destroy It - I can understand his motive!

The tricky question seems to be how did the Ring exert its power? It seems to have had an enormous range of influence. The Nazgûl were expected to be drawn to It from a distance, otherwise Sauron could have sent anyone after Frodo. And the Ring weighs Frodo down even when it isn't on his finger. It appears to have a great amount of power even when it is not being actively used.

[Elven-Maiden]

Gollum had the Ring stolen from him. Therefore, it was still bound to him, prolonging his like.

Bilbo gave it away, breaking (more or less) its hold on him.

Ditto with Sam. He gave it up easily because of his fraternal love for Frodo.

[maiden of the Shire]

...and Sam as well had the ring for a very brief time.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Actually, Gandalf suggested Bilbo would start aging naturally after he gave up the ring. This was mentioned in 'The Shadow of the Past' I believe.

Bilbo was older in Rivendell because Frodo was 33 at the Birthday Party, and was 50 by the time he left the Shire. Bilbo had been 'preserved' at 50 and by the time Frodo came to Rivendell, he had naturally aged to 67. This passage of time is not indicated in the movie.

Gollum had been quite young when he was ensnared. Living with his Grandmother, the importance of Birthday Presents and his 'hanging out' with his friend suggests he may have even been a teenager. His youth makes that story particularly sad.

Gollum aged 78 years after losing the ring, so was in his 80s or 90s during the Quest, but still remarkably strong for his age. Remember, hobbits have slightly longer lifespans than humans. They age slightly slower. Living to 111 is respectable, but not uncommon, rather like living to your nineties. A ninety-year-old Gollum is more like sixty-year-old human. Old, but not infirim.

When the ring was destroyed, everything created with it went up in smoke. Bilbo aged an additional 61 years in a night. That's why he was so very much older only a year later when the hobbits met up with him in Rivendell. Gollum would have gone up in a poof of smoke, aging hundreds of years at once.

He would have died in any case.

-Maril

[Tar-Palantir]

I noticed a funny quote from Gandalf where he says "Be sure that he (Bilbo) took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With pity." Could that be why he was able to go back to 'normal' life, and Gollum could not?

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Tar-Palantir]

When the ring was destroyed, everything created with it went up in smoke. Bilbo aged an additional 61 years in a night. That's why he was so very much older only a year later when the hobbits met up with him in Rivendell. Gollum would have gone up in a poof of smoke, aging hundreds of years at once.

He would have died in any case.

Thank you Maril, I had never thought about the time-line in such a way. I went back to read the Bilbo in Rivendell portions of the book, and you are dead on, he had not aged more than the normal passing of time (17 years). I suppose I let the movie influence my mental image of Bilbo... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

I also found the passage that indicates this - it is Arwen speaking to Frodo on the first page of chapter 6 in RotK -

"For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he will not again make any long journey save one."

How did I miss that!?!?! I guess Gollum without doubt would have died.

Thanks again Maril - [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Well, that's a good point, but we can't be sure. The only way to find out was if Gollum had lived after the ring was destroyed. But do you think it would it happen immediately or would Gollum's age catch up overnight, so maybe Gollum would die in his sleep. I wonder if Gollum knew this. Or if he just felt it or knew it through the ring, just a realization after having the ring so long. Is that one reason he so badly did not want to let the ring be destroyed. I think he might have. There is no doubt that he didn't want the ring with a burning desire. But I think at times he could have had it, but chose not to, especially to keep what friendship he had with Frodo. It seems that at those times he just wanted his life back with friends and no lonliness. So was Gollum also trying to keep himself from dying? Did Gollum know his fate was sealed with the ring? It's a sad, sad case.

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[doug*platypus]

Bilbo aged an additional 61 years in a night. That's why he was so very much older only a year later when the hobbits met up with him in Rivendell.

Ah! Great point, Maril, I also have never picked up on that - thank you Barrow Downs! In appreciation, Maril, one of these days I promise to look at your entire nick, and try to say it in my head.

I can't help but feel, through your revelation, even more cheated by the movie version, where Bilbo has already aged when Frodo reaches Rivendell. After they did such a great job of Gandalf's surprise at Bilbo's being well-preserved.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Thank you all for bringing up the question. I had never sat down and run through the figures before, so it was quite a treat to realise that yes, Gollum did start to age naturally after he lost the ring.

But do you think it would it happen immediately or would Gollum's age catch up overnight, so maybe Gollum would die in his sleep.

Groundskeeper, that's a good question. We don't really know how fast Bilbo aged, because it was nearly six months after the destruction of the ring till Frodo saw him again. He could have aged gradually in that time.

However, I think it likely that it did happen very suddenly. After all, the Towers of Baradur fell immediately.

Actually, the fact that Gollum was a teenager, and a rather rebellious mean-spirited one, explains a great deal about his almost child-like behavior. I don't think he had the maturity - no offense to mature teenagers, I'm referring to a particular type who refuses any concept of personal responsibilty (we all know at least one) - to give up what was 'his' regardless of his feelings for Frodo. He did kill his best friend for the ring after all, someone he knew much longer than Frodo.

I'm sure his immature rather paranoic perspective, 'everyone's against, everyone hates me, it's all their fault, I deserve better' is exactly what the ring worked on to gain control of him. Not difficult to gain a foothold in that.

In Sam, I believe his desire to help Frodo was exactly what the ring tried to work on in him to tempt him. It failed to tempt him with the usual visions of grandeur because it was so against Sam's personality. After Sam's refusal, despite even the power of the ring in Mordor, it attempted a more subtle path. "I would use the ring out of a desire to do good." But those kinds of good intentions are harder to twist.

Doug, yeah, Bilbo's age was one of those things I winced about in the theatre, but I refused to allow it to detract from my enjoying Rivendell. Rather like a cruise to the San Juan islands. Sometimes you have to ignore the annoying loud couple next to you to appreciate the view.

-Maril