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07-15-2003, 11:58 AM | #1 |
Tears of the Phoenix
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Sam and Smeagol
I don't know if this topic has been done before, but I looked at the search thingy and I didn't think it had, so here goes...
Who thinks that Samwise had a huge part in changing Smeagol back into Gollum in TTT and ROTK?
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07-15-2003, 03:04 PM | #2 |
Deathless Sun
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Perhaps Sam had a hand in Smeagol turning back into Gollum. Smeagol could have been provoked into Gollum by Sam's constant mistrust and threats. After all, those were enough to make any one of us mad.
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07-15-2003, 04:52 PM | #3 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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For me the pivotal moment is here:
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__ *(1) The Stairs of Cirith Ungol *(2) Letter #181 (draughts) to Michael Straight [ July 16, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]
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07-15-2003, 07:17 PM | #4 | |||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sam has every right not to trust Gollum, but it wasn't mistrust that prevented Smeagol from staying. No doubt that first passage is the key struggle, but turning point (for me) is
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Because Sam doesn't like Gollum, he constantly picks on him and bullies him. He judges Gollum on what he has done, in another life. Gollum has no doubt suffered enough to make up for his evil deeds that were mainly because of the ring anyways. And biw he's ready to repent and give up the ring in exchange for friends to finally end his loneliness and suffering. You are not to judge a released convict because of what he has done before in another time to someone else. When that convict is out of jail, he has served his time and is willing to start his life over. It's not fair to judge him like that if he has done nothing to him. Sam, however, Quote:
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I hope I made myself clear, if not, I'll try again.
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07-15-2003, 08:59 PM | #5 |
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Even if Sam did bully him, i dont beleive it is fair to blame him for Gollum's treachery. Yes, Gollum was very fragile. However, Sam's first duty was to protect his master, and that was what he was doing. It's only natural for him to be mistrustful of someone with Gollum's history. Ultimately everyone must be responsible for their own actions, regardless of what others have done to provoke them.
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07-15-2003, 09:57 PM | #6 |
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I totally agree with Willie. It is because of Sam's assumptions, the way he treated Gollum as if he was less than the dirt they treaded, and the insults that he attributed to Gollum are the reasons I have never liked Sam. I agree that Gollum could not be entirely trusted, thus Sam was right to have watched him closely...but that does not include abusing him, insulting him.
I like the way Frodo treated him much better. The passage before the stairs of Cirith Ungol is what I had particularly in mind when I posted this...it just breaks my heart. Yet we all have a "Stinker" within us, even Sam did. And Smeagol was hurt by Sam's threats and insults as is seen when he Frodo awakes and Gollum says that he's been off "sneaking." He was a "human" being with a soul. Yes, I believe that Gollum was responsible for his action, yet I think that Sam and Frodo and Gollum had a cause and effect thing going. Gollum trusted Frodo, and when Faramir threatened to kill Gollum, Frodo saved the miserable creature the only way he knew how: deceiving him and leading him into the waiting arms of Faramir's men. That to Gollum's small, pitifull, trusting mind was, put buntly, horrible betrayal to his thirsting soul. I'm sure he was angry with Frodo and, blinded by his fury, he determined to go to Shelob. Have none of you become angry with someone you love and said and done things you have regretted? I believe this is what happened with Gollum. When he calmed down and saw the two together and saw their love, he, too, yearned for it and began to regret it, maybe even to repent of his wickedness. Then Sam opened his big mouth and pushed Gollum too far. I don't know about you, but sometimes, when I feel sorry for something that I have done or said, and somebody goads me or hurts me verbally, I become angry, stubborn, and defiant, without a shred of the former repentance around me. Same with Gollum, I think. I think I read somewhere in one of Tolkien's letters that Smeagol/Gollum would have had to die. The first was the way it is written, but the second, I think, is even more tragic: Smeagol, still enslaved to the Ring, is so devoted to Frodo that he would satisfy his obsession for the Ring and his great desire to please and save Frodo by taking the Ring from Frodo and casting himself into the fiery depths of Mount Doom. Any more thoughts?
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07-16-2003, 03:32 AM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well put Imladris. That passage always gets to me.
questor, I think you missed my point. It is ok for Sam to be mistrustful off Gollum and protect Frodo. But even though you may mistrust someone, you don't have to insult them and put them down because of it. And putting Smeagol down and bullying him, is not protecting Frodo. It is just plain wrong and a way of expressing hatred, not protecting. Sam constantly attacks Smeagol's self-esteem. To me, Sam seems to put Smeagol down to make himself feel higher. Imladris put it perfect- "the way he treated Gollum as if he was less than the dirt they treaded." I don't know what else there is to say.
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07-16-2003, 05:19 AM | #8 |
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Squatter calls Sam the 'half-wise Hobbit'. This is very well put. Sam has grown up believing Smeagol/Gollum to be evil, so that when he was put face to face with him, the hatred that had been stored up all his life shone through. Sam was not capable of changing. He was not really capable of seeing the bigger picture.
Frodo was once like this. But then Gandalf stepped in and had a word with him. Frodo's treatment of Gollum is a direct consequence of the wisdom of Gandalf. I don't blame Sam. I do pity Smeagol.
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07-16-2003, 07:13 AM | #9 |
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While I do agree with a few of the posters here, I think we overestimate Sam's influence on Gollum/Smeagol. It is true that Sam acted very cruelly and suspiciously towards Gollum and that was a factor in driving Gollum to 'betray' Frodo and Sam. However I believe the main factor is the ring itself. We all know the power Tolkein ascribed to the ring in LOTR and I believe that even if Sam had acted kindly and curteously towards Gollum, he would've ended betraying them at some other point.
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07-16-2003, 09:02 AM | #10 |
Deathless Sun
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Remember, the Ring gives power according to the measure of its bearer. Smeagol had always been a bit of a slinker and a thief. The Ring just brought out those traits in him more than they would have been on their own. So he would have betrayed them ultimately, but there is always a "What if..." whenever we read that passage.
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07-16-2003, 10:46 AM | #11 |
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Wow, interesting posts. I think it would be a good idea to analize this.
Okay,there are several factors determining Gollum/Smeagol's descisions: 1. The Ring 2. Frodo 3. Sam 4. Sauron and his servants. 5. Memory The Rings influences all of his evil qualities, such as his slinking and stinking as it were. Frodo represents the love and understanding that he craved. Sam was like a weight around Smeagol's neck: He could never change. He will always be evil. He will always hurt Master. He is Sauron's own. Gollum feared Sauron with a great fear. Then there was the memory of his former life when he wasn't so wickedly awful. So the drawing of the Ring brought out all of Gollum's bad side, which Sam did understand, so he was right to distrust him (which did protect Frodo because Frodo wasn't watching Gollum). Frodo, who understood Gollum's predicament, loved him, in a sense. He accepted Gollum for who and what he was and tried to bring him back. Both hobbits knew that Smeagol had been tortured by Sauron, and thus knew that Gollum feared the Dark Lord and thus they knew that he would not bring the Ring to Him for two reasons: 1. Gollum would not willingly return to Sauron. 2. Gollum would not so easily give up the possession which he craved (though he didn't understand that if he took the Ring from Frodo it would only be a matter of time before Sauron regained it). In The Hobbit , it says that Gollum still retained a mind that was not dominated by the Ring and that Bilbo had, in a sense, re-awakened that small portion of his mind. Since the Ring had left after that, don't you think that that small portion would have grown slowly with time? Of course, it didn't help matters that Gollum was drawn to Mordor, so that was many steps backward. And then he still had the fear of Sauron and the effect of the Ring still on him when he joined Frodo and Sam. But then Frodo treated him with kindness and respect (which is a form of love), while Sam hated him with an unreasonable hatred. Sam was like a chisel slowly chipping away at that portion of the mind that was growing under Frodo's love. Sauron was far away and didn't have that much of a hateful influence of Gollum, I believe. The memories of his former life helped Smeagol rather than tear him down, I think. The Ring's effect was not as strong as Frodo because love is stronger than hate. But Sam, with whom Gollum was in constant contact, was too much. The jibe that he flung at Smeagol on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, the place before Mordor where Sauron was strong and the Ring powerful, was the turning point...the shift of the balance between the battle between the good and the evil within Smeagol. Also, Smeagol/Gollum was like a child. He was immature, incapable of thinking things through. He was easily swayed by emotions. In the end then if it had not been for the added weight of Sam's hate, Gollum would have betrayed them by taking the Ring from Frodo, but he also would have shown his loyalty to Frodo by casting himself into Mount Doom thereby destroying the Ring and himself as well. Thus he would satisfy both sides.
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07-16-2003, 12:09 PM | #12 | |
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07-16-2003, 12:40 PM | #13 |
Deathless Sun
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As Gandalf said, Sauron was calling all evil things to him in Mordor. As Smeagol (and Sam and Frodo) got closer and closer to Barad-dur, more and more of Gollum came out. It became harder and harder for Smeagol to be "nice" to Frodo and Sam, and not betray them, as his Gollum personality took over more often.
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07-16-2003, 01:26 PM | #14 | |
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Good point Finwe and Lord of Angmar, however, I do disagree with a statement that Lord of Angmar said:
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07-16-2003, 02:14 PM | #15 | |||
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I agree with most of what you say, Imladris, concerning the various factors influencing Gollum's actions at this point in the story. I do, however, disagree with your conclusion that, had Gollum seized the Ring from Frodo: Quote:
But of course the Ring would have had its part to play as well. Its desire was to get back to its Master and, in Gollum's hands, it would no doubt have found the task much easier than it did in the hands of Frodo. As I have said above, Gollum would not willingly have surrendered the Ring to Sauron, but I have little doubt that it would only have been a matter of time before it betrayed him and he was picked up by Sauron's agents. Certainly, I do not believe that Gollum would willingly have destroyed the Ring, even by throwing himself into Mount Doom with it. Ultimately, none could willingly destroy the Ring, not even Frodo. And I believe that this would hold true for any attempt by the bearer to destroy himself with it. It is difficult to say what would have happened had Sam not treated Gollum in the way that he did. Perhaps the outcome would have been similar, with Gollum accompanying Frodo and Sam all the way to Mount Doom and then making a play for the Ring when Frodo claimed it as his own at Sammath Naur. But it is also possible that, as they neared Mount Doom, the lure of the Ring would have become irresistible to him and he would have found an opportunity to seize it. In light of what I have said above, I believe that such an eventuality would have virtually guaranteed victory for Sauron. So, who knows? Perhaps Sam was "meant" to treat Gollum in the way that he did. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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07-16-2003, 04:56 PM | #16 |
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I would not have had the imagination to think that Gollum/Smeagol would have thrown himself into Mount Doom to satisfy both the Ring and Frodo...I think I got that from one of Tolkien's letters. I don't know which one because I haven't read them all and I just happened to come across it when I was flipping through the book...of course, I could be misremembering (I have a terrible memory)...
Yes, Sam was meant to treat Gollum the way he did. It is difficult to say what would have happened if Sam had treated Gollum differently: maybe it would have remained the same. Maybe it would have delayed the inevitable. (The way we are writing, it sounds as if this actually happened. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) I guess I have an appeal for Smeagol and I resent the way Sam treated him and I cannot help but wonder if it would have been different. My heart aches for that poor miserable creature. Besides being destroyed by the Ring, I think he was also destroyed by guilt. I love tragedy, but not that sort of tragedy. Great insight.
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07-16-2003, 07:10 PM | #17 | |
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I do somewhat agree with what everyone is saying here, but in defence of Sam, I would like to bring up another passage just a paragraph down that everyone seems to be forgetting.
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Therefore, I think Sam was angry at himself, and that made him yell at Gollum. I do this sometimes when I have made a mistake and am angry with myself. I, like Sam, quickly apoligise to whoever I was sharp with. I also think if Gollum was really good, he might have at least thought about believing Sam. Namarie
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07-17-2003, 12:57 AM | #18 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yes, maybe Sam was remorseful, but it was still too late:
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07-17-2003, 09:37 AM | #19 | ||
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Eureka!
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Also: Quote:
Besides, if Sam had such a hatred for Gollum/Smeagol, it would have shone through in his speech and actions, not matter how hard he tried to hide it (and I got the impression he didn't try).
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07-17-2003, 10:00 AM | #20 |
Deathless Sun
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Sam was inherently a Hobbit. Hobbits had a natural mistrust of all things strange and unpredictable, and if Gollum wasn't strange and unpredictable, I don't know what else to call him. Frodo, on the other hand, was more accepting, because he had grown up with Bilbo's stories and Bilbo himself. Sam's heart was that of the quintessential Hobbit, so he couldn't help mistrusting and hating Gollum. Frodo pitied him because he knew what he had gone through, and understood the pain that Gollum felt.
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07-17-2003, 11:22 AM | #21 | |||
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[ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]
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07-17-2003, 11:37 AM | #22 | ||
Wight
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Also, sam never really saw Gollum's "good side" he woke up from his sleep, and saw a creature he knew was capable of great harm trying to touch the one person that Sam cared most for and he reacted logically.
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07-17-2003, 12:03 PM | #23 | |
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Well, I suppose if the Professor himself thought that, then it has to be a pretty likely scenario. But it does not, for me, sit easily with my impression of Gollum's character and motivations. Nor does it seem consistent with the idea that no person could, having possession of it, voluntarily destroy the Ring.
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07-17-2003, 12:13 PM | #24 | |
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07-17-2003, 12:45 PM | #25 | |
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Frodo at Sammath Naur would, in a proper frame of mind, undoubtedly have thought it a good idea to throw the Ring into the fire below. But, although he was able bravely to resist it for so long, even he succumbed to its will in that final moment and was therefore unable willingly to destroy it. I find it very difficult to see how Gollum would not also have succumbed to the Ring in the same way.
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07-17-2003, 02:55 PM | #26 |
Haunting Spirit
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Another thing we must remember are the bigger forces at work. Gollum's part in LotR was summed up by his destroying the ring when Frodo could not. If Gollum hadnt been knocked back into stinkerage by Sam things could well have been very different. The ring may never have been destroyed, and in a word, that would stink. Maybe the Valar meant for such a thing to happen through sam's natural mistrust.
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07-17-2003, 04:23 PM | #27 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I like Tolkien's possibility better, and it just seems right. I think that Gollum could have actually withheld the power of the ring. The first reason being of his hatred for Sauron, as we all know. Smeagol would have settled the score (he would think so) by throwing Sauron's ring in. The second reason would be his love for Frodo {and in the case the case that Sam let him repent, then they would probably become closer and in that case, his love of Sam too (possibly)}. Smeagol would not have realized that he would die very soon after the ring would be thrown in, but it would not matter anyways since he would have gone in with it. Smeagol, even if he would not be around afterwards to continue the friendship, would still have done it out of love and friendship, as a way of repaying Frodo, and possbily Sam, for their kindness and love that cured Smeagol of over 500 years of lonliness. The last (at least the last I can think of), and probably the most powerful would be his desire to finally win his lifelong battle with the ring. For over 500 years he has been tormented by the ring. He loved it, yes, for he was addicted to it. But he hated it also, and much more I believe. It was because of the ring that he was tricked, forced, or encouraged to kill his best (and probably only) friend Deagol, getting expelled from his home and shunned by his family and nieghbors alike, driven to lonliness, twisted his body and mind, driven to torture, captured and interrogated, driven to hate things he once loved, and living in fear, hate, and remorse and regret. It was his will to escape all that and to overcome it once and for all. He must have been sick of living like that, far beyond his time, and being driven mad by his addiction. And for once in his life he has found something worth giving the ring up for and truly living for. I think he would have realized he no longer needed the ring, and quite possibly that he did not want it, for he had found the better things in life. But that's just my opinion. I think you are missing my point Finwe, Lord of Angmar, and Cinderella. Tell me, just because you mistrust someone, do you scorn, insult, or bully them? I hope you don't, for you have no right to. Sam was alright to mistrust Gollum, but that is not an excuse for insulting, bullying, or scowling at him. Quote:
Yes Frodo did know what Gollum went through but had he not have, I don't think he would have bullied him, insulted him, or scorned him. Quote:
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07-17-2003, 07:30 PM | #28 |
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Thank you Willie!!!!!! At last someone understands that I don't think it was wrong for Sam to distrust Gollum/Smeagol. I myself would have been mistrustful of him. I have a problem with the way Sam treated Gollum (bullying, insulting, etc). And I think that if Sam hadn't been so bigoted he would have seen the Smeagol side growing stronger and stronger.
Just because Sam didn't understand what Gollum/Smeagol had gone through doesn't give him the right to treat him like dirt. Gandalf understood him and had he born the One Ring? No. That kind of wisdom all men possess I think, the wisdom to pity the miserable, the wretched, the criminal. I am not excusing any of the actions of Gollum, not in the least. Sam was right not to trust him: wrong to treat him like dirt. That part of Gollum's mind that was still his own was growing, struggling, being choked by weeds of hate, anger, and the lure of the Ring, but growing under love, pity, and kindness. As far as I'm conscerned, Sam fed the weeds.
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07-17-2003, 07:37 PM | #29 | |
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Yes, Sam's actions were rash and unfair but so were Smeagol's! The first time Sam meets Gollum it's due to Gollum attacking him and Frodo in his sleep, I know I would have trouble trusting him after that! So I don't think blame falls with either of them specifically, but both of them instead. Gollum shouldn't have been so darn untrustworthy and bad natured, and Sam should have been more understanding.
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07-17-2003, 07:38 PM | #30 |
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Good summary, Imladris. I am also inclined to believe that Sam "fed the weeds" as you put it. He was right in mistrusting him, but his ideas could have been more... eloquently carried out.
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07-17-2003, 09:05 PM | #31 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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07-17-2003, 09:41 PM | #32 |
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You know, I had never noticed before that Gollum fell and then Sam jumped...but then, it was probably a precautionary measure on Sam's part, considering what Gollum was hissing underneath his breath...
I was talking about this thread to my mom and we got into a little debate over it. She thinks that Sam did not have a huge part in Smeagol turning back into Gollum because Gollum was so evil all ready. And then she came up with this idea: What if Smeagol had never entirely disappeared from Gollum? What if Smeagol cut the Ring from Frodo's hand to save him, while Gollum cut it from his hand to regain his what was once his? What if, as Gollum/Smeagol boasted of his prize as they danced upon the Crack's edge, Gollum danced for the sheer delight of regaining his 'Precious' while Smeagol danced upon the edge with sheer joy that he had saved his master, his Frodo from the doom that had come upon him? It would be that same battle between Gollum and Smeagol that Sam had witnessed once before.
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07-17-2003, 09:42 PM | #33 |
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Of course, everything I've written before still stands.
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07-18-2003, 09:52 AM | #34 | |
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07-18-2003, 10:21 AM | #35 | |
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Can any mortal become fully evil in Middle-earth? I know that the Ring wraiths and the Mouth of Sauron did, but isn't that because they became a part of Sauron, as it were? But can any mortal who has not come under the full domination of the Ring become fully evil like Sauron? I think this needs to be answered before we can conclude whether Gollum/Smeagol was acting wholly from the Stinker side of him.
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07-18-2003, 05:11 PM | #36 |
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OK, I definitely think Sam changed smeagol's mind at the moment and Cirith Ungol. But I think that the movie would have brought up that question. They portrayed it badly. I really don't think Smeagol was ever on top (wehreas in the movie - "we tells him to go away and he goes away")
So, there was never much of a smeagol in the books to be supressed
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07-18-2003, 08:55 PM | #37 |
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I think if sam wass a little bit nicer to smeagol ,he would not have felt so alone and i think sam made him feel,if possible, more like and outcast in the world.If you remember frodo was much more understanding with gollum and saw him like a person,but sam just treated him like a wretched animal. i think sam did not help gollum's decision in having to turn to shelob and maybe smeagol would have turned good if it werent for sam.
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07-19-2003, 10:29 AM | #38 |
Tears of the Phoenix
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I think, that after reading this post, I have to re-state my conclusions.
Gollum was still fighting good and evil within him, and drawn by the Ring, which was evil, that probably influenced him more. However, because of Frodo's love and pity, Smeagol began to grow. Sam was a drawback. Gollum lost trust in Frodo when he was betrayed into the waiting arms of Faramir. That was a terrible set back. Then he repented at the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, until he was pushed back by Sam's insult. That was the end of it. So I guess really that Sam didn't have a huge part in it, but Sam was the determining factor in his turning back. Hope that made sense. It is still to be decided whether Gollum and Smeagol were fighting it out when they bit off Frodo's finger. Again, I do think it was good and very wise of Sam to distrust Gollum. It was wrong of Sam to abuse him and torment him. Hope I summed everything up clearly. Imladris P.S Thank you for rating me whoever did it! You made me pathetically happy last night!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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07-20-2003, 03:34 AM | #39 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
Quote:
+ Frodo's pity and love + Frodo saving Smeagol from Faramir - The ring - Sam, especially at the Stairs of Cirith Ungol So, I find that Sam had a huge part in Gollum not repenting.
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07-20-2003, 08:31 AM | #40 |
Tears of the Phoenix
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Oh, good point, Willie. I scanned through the chapter and I received the impression that he was asking Frodo to save him after Gollum thought that Frodo had betrayed him...but that's just picking at straws probably; that incident may have secured Frodo's and Smeagol's bond. Maybe Smeagol realized that on the Stairs and maybe that's why he debated whether to deliver them over to Shelob or not. I wonder whether Smeagol was intending to get safe passage through that tunnel from Shelob, before the Gollum side became dominant. He is such a deep and intriguing character.
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