The reason Sauron wanted to conquer Middle Earth... my theory...

[Iarhen]

I have been meditating on what might have been the reason Sauron wanted to conquer and rule Middle Earth.

And I have concluded the following. Since Sauron was not only seduced by Melkor, but also he was dominated by him. The same way in which Sauron dominated his slaves and servants, thats the way Melkor dominated Sauron.

So, after Melkor was casted into the Void, Sauron remained here for a reason. He wanted to conquer the world. But, why?? Just because the idea that Morgoth introduced in his mind was driving him to that goal? I think that its not just that.

We all know that Morgoth will be able to come back to Middle Earth when the end of the world approaches. We all know that if Sauron conquered M.E., he would have killed most of the people in it (elf, man, dwarf or hobbit). And if Sauron did not killed them, at least he would enslave them...

Eitherway, the world as we know it, the world created by Eru and guarded by the Valar, WOULD HAVE COME TO ITS END. There are a lot of ways in which M.E. could end, not only its utter and complete destruction.

If Sauron gained complete control over M.E., all people and all living things in M.E. would have been subdued to the Dark Lord. And in their enslavery, Sauron would slowly get control over all beings on M.E.

Then, Sauron would be the only living thing in M.E. with a will of his own. Free will, and other things, would be completely lost.

And then, the world as Eru made would have come to its bitter end. No more world, only Sauron's realm.

SO, Morgoth would be able to come back to M.E. So, my wild guess here is that, behind Sauron's will and decision to rule M.E. was Morgoth and his ideas...

And Im not saying that Morgoth did it directly. It would be one of his damages that could endure his parting, such as the strained relationship between elves and men.

If elves such as Galadriel and Elrond were able to see the future, the Most Powerful Valar would have been able to do so as well.

So, if Morgoth foresaw that he would be casted out into the Void, then he would have prepared the whole War of the Ring history, so that he, Morgoth, would be able to come back to a world where his servant, Sauron, ruled. And then, Morgoth would be able to rule over all Middle Earth...

For what purpose? I cant imagine. Probably launching an attack against Valinor, using Morgoth's and Sauron's power, and Morgoth's knowledge of the Void...

What do you think?

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

That's interesting, however, I still think that Sauron was just evil and extremely sadistic. He was also influenced by Melkor, so that's part of it. And, I'm sure Sauron just liked power. Or maybe his daddy didn't give him hugs when he was little, and decided to hug the mailman instead (I'm waiting fot LePetitChoux or doug*platypus to pick up on this one). But seriously, I really think that there is no reason behind it at all. YOu need an antagonist. You need a villian and a conflict. It's a neccessary part of creating a novel. Tolkien just threw him in to be the 'bad guy'. I'm sure there are other reasons, but this is the simplest and most logical.

[ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm not sure Sauron's will was actually his own will anyway.

[Aule]

I always thought that if Sauron OR Melkor ever did completely conquer ME they would get really bored (sounds silly i know) but imagine this, before total domination of ME men, elves and dwarves shuddered at the thought of this prospect. The very idea of being taken captive would terrify anyone. The idea of his black shadow encompassing the whole of ME caused great leaders like Denethor to lose all hope of a better time. This would be fantastic for Sauron knowing that he was causing such pain. He was having to make a bit of an effor to do so and once he was in control he would no longer have to make an effort to scare the free ppl as they would no longer be free. I t would be no challenge. He wouldn't be getting as much satisfaction back from it.
Hope u understand where i'm coming from with this thought.

[Meoshi]

Willie is wrong, I would say. Sauron is not your basic stock 'Bad Guy'. He's not an Overlord. He's the other, rarer kind of fantasy villain: The Overmind type. A huge, brooding malevolent presence that is always at work but never seen, whose will moves his armies like chesspieces. That's a bit scarier than your basic Evil Overlord.

(For a bit more on the subject go to www.eviloverlord.com, but I'm sure most of you have already been there [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

[littlemanpoet]

Well said, Mioshi. It runs even deeper than that. Not only did Sauron want to become overlord, but he took special pleasure in the ruination of formerly free peoples. I can't remember where it is in the book, but I think I remember Gandalf describing what it would be like to become Sauron's prisoner. Something about having one's mind and soul bared to that evil intelligence to be picked apart and played with until there was nothing left worth calling a mind. That's a bad reconstruction of it, but close enough for recountings' sake. It tells me that Sauron's work would have only just started once he had become overlord. He then had the next few millenia to psychologically eviscerate his captives. (By the way, I had to look up that word after I wrote it 'cause it's only in the subcategories of my working vocabulary, and oooog! it was right on: evsicerate: to take out the entrails/disembowel) 'nuf said.

[Meoshi]

Like being eaten by Shelob, I guess. Only longer, and on a mental level as well as physical. That description just reminds me of a spider sucking juices out of his prey.

[Lyta_Underhill]

You know, for an Overmind, Sauron has one heck of a blind spot! He doesn't figure out the key plan of the Enemy (our good guys) until the very end, when Frodo claims the Ring at the Cracks of Doom and thus lays himself bare to the Eye. Only then does he see his folly, and then it is too late. Some Overmind! Or perhaps that is the nature of an overmind; he's so busy being cruel and controlling and making the larger moves against the larger foes, that he forgets or underestimates, the tiny hobbits who are his undoing in the end. Now an Overmind who thought with special malice towards large AND small, every detail, now THAT would be scary!

Cheers,
Lyta (the Absentmind)

[Meoshi]

Such a character would be difficult to defeat. Yes, such is the nature of an Overmind character: it can't be defeated head on. A back way has to be found.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Meoshi:

Willie is wrong, I would say. Sauron is not your basic stock 'Bad Guy'. He's not an Overlord. He's the other, rarer kind of fantasy villain: The Overmind type. A huge, brooding malevolent presence that is always at work but never seen, whose will moves his armies like chesspieces. That's a bit scarier than your basic Evil Overlord.

I didn't say Sauron was nothing more than a bad guy. He is more, and he's interesting and cunning, but in general he is the bad guy. I'm saying the reason he's there and is like that is because a villian or an antagonist is needed in the story, and that's why Tolkien put him in. You can't really explain what drives these villians to be so evil. The author just makes it that way to have a bad guy who is completely negative. Now do you see what I mean?

[Elfstone]

I'm kind of new around here, so I'm not quite sure if I'm allowed to tell you guys that I think some of you are a bit nuts. So I won't. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

You're reading into Sauron a bit too much I think. He's evil and full of hatred. He wants the unrestrained power to impose his will on others. He is full of jealousy and desire for the possesions and riches of others. He's not satisfied with his toys - he wants yours, too.

Since when has "the bad guy" needed more reason than that?

[ March 01, 2003: Message edited by: Elfstone ]

[thesandman762]

I just wanted to say that whatever Saurons motive was, it was what he was made out of. Even after being destroyed, his spirit lived on, and returning in a new form. I believe this motive was definitely tied to the ring(s), and THAT is why Sauron could only be destroyed when it was.

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to the Downs, the sandman762 and Elfstone. Enjoy your deadness. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elfstone, perhaps you might clarify which ideas you think are 'beyond the pale'?

[Voralphion]

I think that Sauron wasn't just a mindless slave to Morgoth as mentioned by the poster, Sauron was evil because he was in awe of and wanted to be exactly like Morgoth, a kind of hero worship if you will. Also, I don't think the Valar would have allowed Sauron to completely conquer Middle Earth. If Sauron managed to destroy all resistance to himself I think the Valar would be obligated to oppose his force with theirs like in the War of the Wrath. They would not allow anyone to completely control the Children of Illuvatar because of their loyalty to him.

[alatar]

Interesting thread. Why would Sauron want to conquer all of Middle Earth - would this end his game? Did he need to conquer all?

I think that Sauron, first of all, had the need to conquer all. He must have squirmed under Morgoth's "rule," though I think that he was given pretty much free reign and maybe in time would have contested even Morgoth for the rule of all. In the mean time, Sauron may have just been going along with Morgoth's game as it fit his own ends. It's been said about him that he was only 'second' only because Morgoth was first.

So Sauron may have felt the need to conquer all - to put down any chance of any possible source of resistance. But then what would this mean he would have to prepare for the coming invasion. If Sauron would have put down all - which would have kept him entertained for some time - he also would have had all of the newly enslaved building what might be called "Fortress Middle Earth." Even if the Valar would have left Middle Earth to its own problems, Sauron still would have feared an invasion.

After the breaking of Angband, would Sauron even believe that he could withstand an attack? Would he then temper his destruction and mayhem, think that if he only enslaved and not completely destroyed, that the Valar would just ignore him?

What would he do if he had reclaimed the One?

[Tietäjä]

Well, if Sauron had conquered all of Middle-Earth then what would have kept Valar from destroying him? There was nothing to lose.

[Lindale]

The Valar feared to interfere with ME matters (what, were they too holy for that?! kidding!!) because they feared that they would make things worse in the long (or rather, the middle) run -- the last time they interfered, Beleriand was ruined, sunk into the ocean. If Sauron had the mastery of all ME and the Valar decided to move against him, what, ME underwater? (Jolly Ulmo would have a wider realm now!)

You'll see that there are two types of evil archetypes: the just-evil, evil is his nature. Corruption, all that stuff. Now the author who resorts to this has seriously run out of imagination.

The second, is the fallen-angel type. Lucifer, Morgoth, Voldemort, Sargeras (from the Warcraft thing), you name it. They were once the mightiest, the greatest of the great, but because they have , shall we say, beautiful minds, somehow it crept to them to rebel.

Sauron.... hmmm hmmm hmmm. Remember the end of the Sil? The paragraph saying that Here ends the SIlmarillion.... there was something said that the seeds that Morgoth planted will continue to blossom and bear fruit even if he's long imprisoned. I think Sauron is one (and maybe the greatest) manifestation of that. And then comes the myth archetype: the fallen angel who rebelled is imprisoned by the good, but after a long long time he breaks free, to continue the destruction of the world, and then the One (the God, the Nous, whatever) allows it so that he can rebuild the whole world (like a New Jerusalem in the Christian traditions).

Sauron is part of it, Sauron is one of the "planted seeds" of Morgoth. Now if ever he did conquer ME and Morgoth is set loose, I don't think he will bow down to his fallen master. But then again, that's my speculation.

[Eönwë]

Well, I think that if Sauron had conquered ME then it would have caused the Dagor Dagorath, so Arda would end.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, I think that if Sauron had conquered ME then it would have caused the Dagor Dagorath, so Arda would end.

...then the Dominion of Men would not have come to pass...

[doug*platypus]

Iarhen seems to be postulating that Sauron wanted control over Middle Earth in order to bring about the return of Morgoth. Not a bad theory; it has some merit. But my own feeling is that desire for utter and absolute power is what motivated him to wage war against the "free peoples".

He may not have been governed by this motivation from the very outset. In the Ainulindale, we can surmise that Sauron was one of those Ainur who harkened to Melkor's theme and joined in the dissent. This rebelliousness against Iluvatar was present from the start. In the First Age, Sauron began to get a taste for power in his high ranking position in the forces of Morgoth. He seemed to have a certain amount of autonomy in leading the pursuit of Barahir and company, and commanding Tol-in-Gaurhoth. For this reason, and more importantly because Morgoth was far more powerful than him, I believe he was settled in his role. He was a happy employee, if you will. It was during the Second Age, with no Morgoth around, that he really began to come into his own, and seek dominance, first over the men of Middle Earth, then over the Numenoreans. By this time, he would have felt a lot of hatred towards the Eldar and Edain, those who had fought gallantly against him in the First Age. Also reinforced by the fact that they were favoured by the Valar, whereas he was now an outcast because of his actions. Rehabilitation and acceptance was never an option for him.

So, what I'm saying is that, with these things taken into consideration, his hatred, and his growing lust for power (if I may paraphrase one of my favourite movies, all those who gain power are afraid to lose it) are enough to explain why he wanted to conquer Middle Earth. I don't believe that he would have been seeking the return of his former master. I feel he would have been reluctant to once again assume a subservient role, as his ambition had grown in the interim. Or, as Willie says, perhaps his daddy decided to hug the mailman?!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

Or, as Willie says, perhaps his daddy decided to hug the mailman?!

What the–????

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by alatar

Interesting thread. Why would Sauron want to conquer all of Middle Earth - would this end his game? Did he need to conquer all?

I think that Sauron, first of all, had the need to conquer all. He must have squirmed under Morgoth's "rule," though I think that he was given pretty much free reign and maybe in time would have contested even Morgoth for the rule of all. In the mean time, Sauron may have just been going along with Morgoth's game as it fit his own ends. It's been said about him that he was only 'second' only because Morgoth was first.

I don't think that he would have contested Morgoth's rule, although I do not want to eliminate the thought completely.


I just think that you can have an extreme lust for domination and power and still be second in command without rebelling.

Like:
Stalin under Lenin
Himler under Hitler
and
Cheney under Bush

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I don't think that he would have contested Morgoth's rule, although I do not want to eliminate the thought completely.

I just think that you can have an extreme lust for domination and power and still be second in command without rebelling.

Rune, I agree that it is not likely Sauron would have contested Morgoth's renewed rule. After all, Sauron built Angband in anticipation of Morgoth's return in the 1st Age (and of course there's the apocryphal information regarding Morgoth's release from bondage at the end of the world).

It is, however, intriguing to think of Sauron and Morgoth squaring off, isn't it? Morgoth most likely would still command the remaining Balrogs and dragons, while Sauron (with the aid of the Rings) would probably hold his armies of corrupted men in sway. What the question would be is which way the Orcs might go (and argument could be made for either Sauron or Morgoth).

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Like:
Stalin under Lenin
Himler under Hitler
and
Cheney under Bush

Hmmm...let me see, you list 2 sets of evil geniuses, then a pair of bumbling, obfuscating wannabes. I don't get the comparison.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What the question would be is which way the Orcs might go (and argument could be made for either Sauron or Morgoth).

Probably Morgoth. He made them after all. Sauron is just "borrowing" them, or "keeping them safe". They're not actually his to command, if Morgoth was the other option.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Rune, I agree that it is not likely Sauron would have contested Morgoth's renewed rule. After all, Sauron built Angband in anticipation of Morgoth's return in the 1st Age (and of course there's the apocryphal information regarding Morgoth's release from bondage at the end of the world).

It is, however, intriguing to think of Sauron and Morgoth squaring off, isn't it? Morgoth most likely would still command the remaining Balrogs and dragons, while Sauron (with the aid of the Rings) would probably hold his armies of corrupted men in sway. What the question would be is which way the Orcs might go (and argument could be made for either Sauron or Morgoth).

Yes it is interesting. . .it would be interesting to see how loyalties would be devided, I mean if Sauron could betray Morgoth then the Balrogs might be split between the two and the orcs what about them?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...let me see, you list 2 sets of evil geniuses, then a pair of bumbling, obfuscating wannabes. I don't get the comparison.

I think it was a case of me being tired because I got home late after a night out and decided that it would be funny to throw in a pair that would devide people, then I just picked the most obviouse pair (to me).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

So, what I'm saying is that, with these things taken into consideration, his hatred, and his growing lust for power (if I may paraphrase one of my favourite movies, all those who gain power are afraid to lose it) are enough to explain why he wanted to conquer Middle Earth. I don't believe that he would have been seeking the return of his former master. I feel he would have been reluctant to once again assume a subservient role, as his ambition had grown in the interim. Or, as Willie says, perhaps his daddy decided to hug the mailman?!

But then what? If he would have conquered all, would there be anything of interest to keep the Old Eye going? If everyone who remained were dissatisfied, would that be enough? If all of the Free Folk ended - by choice like Denethor II or either fallen in bitter battle or by the games of the orcs - what would Sauron do then?

You really want to give some consideration to those retiring years before they show up.

Or would he, having conquered all resistance in Middle Earth, think that with its entire resources at his disposal, that he could export war to the West?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that if he had conquered Middle-earth, Sauron might have given thought to conquering the West -- if it had not been removed from the planet. Sauron himself might have been able to find and cross the Straight Road to return to Aman, but could he have brought his armies with him? And he does have something of a paranoid personality; would he have trusted that Middle-earth would remain under his sway with him (and probably his most powerful minions) not there to mind the store (so to speak)? I think he would have had doubts. And if he is aware of the fact that the Valar called upon Eru Himself to protect Aman from Ar-Pharazon and his armies, might he not worry that they would not hesitate to do so again, should he somehow manage to present a direct threat to the West? My personal feeling is that Tolkien's remarks in Morgoth's Ring, that Sauron wanted order -- HIS order, thus with himself as ruler -- above all might well prevent him from doing more than toying with the idea of attacking Aman after conquering ME. The movement of troops and materiel between the worlds would be quite daunting, and I rather think that Sauron had a Miltonesque view of life, that it would be better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. Tolkien's comments about the motives of Melkor and Sauron in MR also incline me to believe that Sauron really had no desire to see Melkor freed from the Void. Since Melkor's eventual aim was total nihilism, and Sauron was at all aware of it, he had to know that sooner or later, a free Melkor striving toward his personal goal would eventually turn on him. Without a world in existence, there would be nothing for Sauron to order and rule. To that end, Melkor's ability to wreak havoc worked to help make the peoples of ME easier to subjugate -- or would, once Melkor and his destructive madness were out of the picture. In that regard, the Valar did Sauron a favor, clearing the way for him to eventually conquer what Melkor wanted to destroy.

That said, it's certainly possible that Sauron, if he conquered ME, would turn his thoughts toward a campaign against the West, but just how hungry for conquest WAS he? Would he risk losing what he had finally gained, a world of his own? I wonder....