Armour - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dimaldaeon · 07-18-2003, 03:44 PM

I've been meaning to prepare a post on armour for some time but my parents are telling me to get off the internet so i'll make this short for now. In TT when the Gondorion soldiers are fighting in Osgiliath they are all wearing FULL PLATE ARMOUR. Now this mightn't seem odd to many but really full plate armour was only available to the super rich. In modern terms it costs about €200,000 for a suit. So Gondor must be a heck of a lot wealthier than we thought. It's just a shame that this wasn't pointed out to PJ as they've obviously thought about it elsewhere eg many Rohirrim soldiers are wearing leather armour as most commoners would have.

Meela · 07-18-2003, 03:52 PM

That's a good point. My first reaction is to suggest that perhaps armour was not so wealthy in those days, and Gondor could acquire what they needed at low prices, and in large quantity. Perhaps the economy's natural/other resources allowed for it.Also, you compare Rohan and Gondor. My next reaction is to question Gondor's wealth, due to the fact that they have built up a great stone city or two, while Rohan remains a cluster of wooden houses. Is this due to wealth or resources? And if Gondor had any wealth, is it now exhausted or still in existence?

Dwalin · 07-18-2003, 08:00 PM

I was always thought of the Rohirrim as a semi-nomadic people. So great stone cities don't seem to be in character here. Also, cavalry should wear lighter armor to monopolize on their improved speed and mobility.I think Gondor's armory would be full to bursting. After all, it was the BIGGEST military power in the west for many years. I suppose they might have lots of old armor from their glory days.

Duncariel · 07-18-2003, 08:22 PM

It seems to me that full-plate armour would be less expensive and take a lesser amount of time to fashion than say, plated mail. For instance, hammering a simple plate would take much less time and it would be easier to mass produce that plated, or chain, mail.Gondor was founded by the Edain, who were originally Numenoreans. Numenor was destroyed because it became too proud. Why were they proud? Because they were a rather mighty people, who thought to even take on the Valar. You have to have a lot of faith in yourself to even dream of a conquest such as that. Pride such as that would no have faded quickly. Thus.........................Expensive Armour!

Aragost · 07-18-2003, 08:45 PM

I have no idea how much a Euro is worth but 200,000 is alot of money. (I prefer chain mail anyway)

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 07-18-2003, 08:55 PM

It doesn't surprise me that Gondor would have expensive armor. When a war comes along, they don't just buy 4,000 or whatever amount of field plates. They're bound to have them from over the years, and they can usually be repaired after battle. They would be collected after wars and stored in Gondor's military inventory.Not to mention that during war, Gondor would mobilize and immediately blacksmiths would be working for teh military, producing whatever was needed. Now, there would be a price of course, but it would most likely be paid after the war was over, once the country had made a profit off it. And their would be other benefits for the blacksmiths to take the place of money. But you have to remember, Gondor was ruled by a king, and at times, a steward, and whatever he says goes. So blacksmiths would have to do it. And they would still have to do it anyways because if they don't, they might lose the war, and in that case, they know that the forces of Mordor would take over Gondor and who knows what would happen then.

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-19-2003, 12:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gondor could acquire what they needed at low prices, and in large quantity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mass production = cheap Well the elves must be very rich then for in my opinion they have the best armor of all.

Dimaldaeon · 07-20-2003, 02:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...for the Elves have the best armour of all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This leads me onto my next question. How do you imagine Elvish armour? Did the film get it right or are your thoughts different. I personally think that the Leaf Mail of Haldir's soldiers in TT is a bit over the top artistically, maybe a very wealthy officer wishing to show off would have purchased it.

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-20-2003, 03:33 PM

The elves don't do much fighting in the LOTR trilogy itself so I can't tell you how I imagined their armor without just repeating what I saw in the movie. I didn't think it was too over the top in TTT because it was fasioned after the armor in the Last Alliance but it was a little simpler when it came to the helmets and the shoulders in my opinion. I don't think that it depends on how rich a realm is when it comes to armor I think it is resources. For Rohan there was not much metal to be found on the plains so they had to use leather. Gondor has a mountain range so they are more likely to have more metal from mining. The elves live all over so they can pretty much get anything. Also considering how earth friendly they are they probably reuse much of their old armor by melting it down and reforging it.

Duncariel · 07-20-2003, 04:02 PM

Imagining the Elves armour from the Book perspective is slightly difficult, considering the amount of times it is described. Ummmm... The armour of the Last Alliance was lovely. In other words, I loved it. The Lothlorien elves did seem a bit decked out for wood elves, though. I would have thought that they would have gone a little more the natural way. It did look cool, though.

chucks888 · 07-24-2003, 02:09 PM

Well in those times, blacksmiths and such were much more common, as of course was armor. It was a necessity.The "$200,000" figure you are quoting is of a full-plate armor in modern times. Most of that comes from the rarity. You don't walk down the street and find a blacksmith every two steps now-a-days.

07-18-2003, 03:44 PM	#1
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	Armour I've been meaning to prepare a post on armour for some time but my parents are telling me to get off the internet so i'll make this short for now.<BR>In TT when the Gondorion soldiers are fighting in Osgiliath they are all wearing FULL PLATE ARMOUR. Now this mightn't seem odd to many but really full plate armour was only available to the super rich. In modern terms it costs about €200,000 for a suit.<BR>So Gondor must be a heck of a lot wealthier than we thought. It's just a shame that this wasn't pointed out to PJ as they've obviously thought about it elsewhere eg many Rohirrim soldiers are wearing leather armour as most commoners would have. __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

07-18-2003, 03:52 PM	#2
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	That's a good point. My first reaction is to suggest that perhaps armour was not so wealthy in those days, and Gondor could acquire what they needed at low prices, and in large quantity. Perhaps the economy's natural/other resources allowed for it.<P>Also, you compare Rohan and Gondor. My next reaction is to question Gondor's wealth, due to the fact that they have built up a great stone city or two, while Rohan remains a cluster of wooden houses. Is this due to wealth or resources? And if Gondor had any wealth, is it now exhausted or still in existence? __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-18-2003, 08:00 PM	#3
Dwalin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18	I was always thought of the Rohirrim as a semi-nomadic people. So great stone cities don't seem to be in character here. Also, cavalry should wear lighter armor to monopolize on their improved speed and mobility.<P>I think Gondor's armory would be full to bursting. After all, it was the BIGGEST military power in the west for many years. I suppose they might have lots of old armor from their glory days. __________________ "A man who flies from his fear may find he has only taken a shortcut to meet it.”

07-18-2003, 08:22 PM	#4
Duncariel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow Posts: 226	It seems to me that full-plate armour would be less expensive and take a lesser amount of time to fashion than say, plated mail. For instance, hammering a simple plate would take much less time and it would be easier to mass produce that plated, or chain, mail.<P>Gondor was founded by the Edain, who were originally Numenoreans. Numenor was destroyed because it became too proud. Why were they proud? Because they were a rather mighty people, who thought to even take on the Valar. You have to have a lot of faith in yourself to even dream of a conquest such as that. Pride such as that would no have faded quickly. Thus.........................<P>Expensive Armour! __________________ Middle-earth: Insanity "What, the peons aren't trusted?" -- Yazoo, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

07-18-2003, 08:45 PM	#5
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	I have no idea how much a Euro is worth but 200,000 is alot of money. (I prefer chain mail anyway) __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will

07-18-2003, 08:55 PM	#6
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	It doesn't surprise me that Gondor would have expensive armor. When a war comes along, they don't just buy 4,000 or whatever amount of field plates. They're bound to have them from over the years, and they can usually be repaired after battle. They would be collected after wars and stored in Gondor's military inventory.<P>Not to mention that during war, Gondor would mobilize and immediately blacksmiths would be working for teh military, producing whatever was needed. Now, there would be a price of course, but it would most likely be paid after the war was over, once the country had made a profit off it. And their would be other benefits for the blacksmiths to take the place of money. But you have to remember, Gondor was ruled by a king, and at times, a steward, and whatever he says goes. So blacksmiths would have to do it. And they would still have to do it anyways because if they don't, they might lose the war, and in that case, they know that the forces of Mordor would take over Gondor and who knows what would happen then. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

07-19-2003, 12:17 PM	#7
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gondor could acquire what they needed at low prices, and in large quantity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mass production = cheap <P>Well the elves must be very rich then for in my opinion they have the best armor of all. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

07-20-2003, 02:17 PM	#8
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...for the Elves have the best armour of all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This leads me onto my next question. How do you imagine Elvish armour? Did the film get it right or are your thoughts different. I personally think that the Leaf Mail of Haldir's soldiers in TT is a bit over the top artistically, maybe a very wealthy officer wishing to show off would have purchased it. __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

07-20-2003, 03:33 PM	#9
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	The elves don't do much fighting in the LOTR trilogy itself so I can't tell you how I imagined their armor without just repeating what I saw in the movie. I didn't think it was too over the top in TTT because it was fasioned after the armor in the Last Alliance but it was a little simpler when it came to the helmets and the shoulders in my opinion. I don't think that it depends on how rich a realm is when it comes to armor I think it is resources. For Rohan there was not much metal to be found on the plains so they had to use leather. Gondor has a mountain range so they are more likely to have more metal from mining. The elves live all over so they can pretty much get anything. Also considering how earth friendly they are they probably reuse much of their old armor by melting it down and reforging it. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

07-20-2003, 04:02 PM	#10
Duncariel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow Posts: 226	Imagining the Elves armour from the Book perspective is slightly difficult, considering the amount of times it is described. Ummmm... The armour of the Last Alliance was lovely. In other words, I loved it. The Lothlorien elves did seem a bit decked out for wood elves, though. I would have thought that they would have gone a little more the natural way. It did look cool, though. __________________ Middle-earth: Insanity "What, the peons aren't trusted?" -- Yazoo, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

07-24-2003, 02:09 PM	#11
chucks888 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: California Posts: 25	Well in those times, blacksmiths and such were much more common, as of course was armor. It was a necessity.<P>The "$200,000" figure you are quoting is of a full-plate armor in modern times. Most of that comes from the rarity. You don't walk down the street and find a blacksmith every two steps now-a-days.