Mithril Armor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Deathwail · 01-23-2003, 02:10 AM

Ok so if the Dwarves spent all their time while they had control of Moria mining Mithril then where is it all?I cant imagion they only mined it for themselves so where did it all go?You never read of anyone but Frodo using Mithril Armor (least i have not yet)so who is hoarding all the Mithril goodies? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 01-23-2003, 02:49 AM

Well I really can't tell you that much on it but, the dwarves, isolated themselves from the rest of Middle-earth, so they probably kept the mithril for themselves. It could be traded in the dwarf race, but if they coveted it so much as a precious metal, it was very likely that they tried to keep it with the dwarves. And if it did get out, it was probably traded with the elves for a handsome price, and then, the elves, molded it to greatness, and imbuning special qualities or whatever.

And. it seems that mithril is so rare that they kept it in their race, and it became something that they were known for. And if it was so rare, there probably wasn't that much to go around anyways...

Hope that helps...it's just my opinion...I don't know for sure...

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-23-2003, 08:42 AM

I imagine Earendils armour, that turned the blade of Maeglin was made of Mithril, since normal armour would be tood heavy for him, as he was still young.

Jurion · 01-23-2003, 09:07 AM

Mithril was indeed rare and probably found only in a few places in the world. But in the First Age the Dwarves traded much with the Elves and the Elves prized the weapons and armors made by the Dwarves. So it's very likely that a number of Elves, especially the royalty, wore armor made of Mithril.

It was also said in LotR that Mithril was very expensive and that the mail given to Bibl by Thorin was worth more that the Shire.

Afrodal Fenyar · 01-23-2003, 10:54 AM

Well, if one single armor was worth more than the whole Shire, then it was certainly very rare. Some was probably traded with the elves of Eregion(if they had discovered Mithril in the Second Age?), but the most held in Khazad-Dûm. Later it was probably robbed by the orcs.

Lostgaeriel · 01-23-2003, 11:08 AM

There may be no other mention of mithril used for armour in The Lord of the Rings, but many other 'mithril goodies' are mentioned in the book:

Galadriel's ring, Nenya, the Ring of Water was made of mithril (and set with a diamond).

The Guard of the Citadel at the Court of the Fountain (and only there) wore helms made of mithril. Their surcoats may have been embroidered in true-silver - the text isn't specific in that.

The emblems and letters on Durin's Doors were made using ithildin or starmoon - which is made from mithril.

The crown on the Standard of Arwen was made of mithril and gold.

The new gates of the City were made of mithril and steel.

The ship Vingilot that Eärendil sails through the skies was made of mithril and elven-glass. (Read again Bilbo's Song of Eärendil in Many Meetings.)

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Rumil · 01-27-2003, 07:14 PM

Sauron coveted mithril and had gathered most of what was left in Middle Earth.

doug*platypus · 01-30-2003, 04:48 AM

From a mineralogical standpoint, it is possible (and quite likely) that the minerals being mined for mithril were of a low grade.

In other words, a large amount of these low grade materials were needed to produce only a small amount of mithril. The amount of mining, of digging and of tunneling, to produce something like Frodo's chainmail shirt, would have been considerable. And don't forget the nasty old Balrog.

Ebony · 01-30-2003, 11:27 AM

Although modern mining techniques allow efficient extraction of minerals from low-grade ore, I think we have to assume that the technology of ME was not advanced enough yet to do this. Since we don't know where Mithril lies on the periodic table, we don't know if is a noble metal (like gold and silver) which is easily found in it's free state in nature, or one that is more difficult to reduce, like aluminum, which is almost never found in it's free state. I have often wondered if mithril might actually be aluminum, considering it's light weight (which means it must have a low atomic weight), strong, silver in colour, and rare. Before the introduction of electricity into refining, Aluminum was a very rare and precious metal, as in nature it is nearly always combined with another element, and very difficult to reduce down to it's pure form. The difficulty with this theory, of course, is that aluminum is somewhat softer than dragon scales, but perhaps we can allow that the dwarves may have had techniques of hardening metals non-existant in our world.

01-30-2003, 01:44 PM

In what chapter does it say that Bilbo's was made of mithril? ...I can't find it.

Anyway, it's simply impossible to determine the value or whereabouts of the metal.. or where it all went. This question is as difficult to answer as "Are Orcs immortal?"

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-30-2003, 02:09 PM

In the Hobbit, "Not at Home" ,and in LoTR, " Lothlorien", " The Ring goes south", " The Journey in the dark" and I think in a " Long-excpetced party."

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-30-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

I have often wondered if mithril might actually be aluminum

Gosh, so we drink coke out of mithril cans? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

This question is as difficult to answer as "Are Orcs immortal?"

When did that ever stop anyone trying on the Downs? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Vardamar · 01-31-2003, 07:09 AM

As long as were on the topic of mithrel.
Ive always wonderd if they made swords and axes out of mithrel. It would seem that a mithrel sword could keep a sharp edge and still be very light.

Ebony · 01-31-2003, 08:07 AM

Quote:

As long as were on the topic of mithrel.
Ive always wonderd if they made swords and axes out of mithrel. It would seem that a mithrel sword could keep a sharp edge and still be very light.

I have wondered this too. Sting was described as being very light and strong. I think it is not out of the stretch of imagination to believe that the famous elven blades at least had a mithril component.

Grimbold · 01-31-2003, 08:44 AM

Another factor in the low amount of mithril found in Middle-earth is probably that the Dwarf-kingdoms of Belegost and Nogrod in the northern Blue Mountains fell under the sea when Beleriand was royally wrecked. I imagine those twin kingdoms were very rich in precious stones and minerals: it was without any doubt a great economic loss for the dwarves. Speaking of economics, just to refresh my memory, how does currency generally work in Middle-earth? Gold and silver coins? It would be nice to assign a price to mithril if we could, but we know nothing about it!

Ebony · 01-31-2003, 09:02 AM

There isn't much mention currency in the books, although in FOTR it is mentioned that Bill Ferny charged twelve silver pennies for Bill the Pony, which was three times his value. If you really thought about it, I suppose you could use that as a starting point, and work out approximate values of things from there.

doug*platypus · 02-01-2003, 05:27 AM

I think that the "light but strong" aspect of mithril has led a lot of people, myself included, to speculate that it might be aluminium. However, my own corslet of forged Coke can tabs (great call, Aluminium Saucepan Man!) has never been of much use in defending me from spear thrusts.

And as for Ithildin, the substance which the west door of Moria was decorated with, I don't think that aluminium can really do that. I think that mithril was entirely invented, and that its incredible rarity was a way for Tolkien to explain why we don't see it around today. I can't recall when the Periodic Table reached its current form, but doubtless Tolkien would not have known about it anyway. If he had seen the remarkable completeness and simplicity of the table, he might have canned the idea of mithril altogether.

Deathwail · 02-01-2003, 07:08 AM

Well the Aluminium idea maybe closer then you think since it says in the Sil that Mithril starts out soft like silver and only the dwarves know how to make it hard (heat treating maybe) so as its useful for Armor and such. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Demloth of Dol Amroth · 02-02-2003, 10:27 PM

i dunno-i think Ebony could have a point. mithril may not be aluminum, but it might be based on it, since i remember reading in a science book about aluminum, and how this one scientist was presented a vase of aluminum, before the process for getting it cheaply was discovered, and how valuable it was. this i think was perhaps around JRRT's time (i read this like a year or two ago). so yes, i think Tolkien may have based mithril on aluminum.

another thought: if mithril chain mail was so darn valuable, what d'you think that full mithril plate would cost? chew on that, fellows.

[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Demloth of Dol Amroth ]

01-23-2003, 02:10 AM	#1
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Mithril Armor? Ok so if the Dwarves spent all their time while they had control of Moria mining Mithril then where is it all?I cant imagion they only mined it for themselves so where did it all go?You never read of anyone but Frodo using Mithril Armor (least i have not yet)so who is hoarding all the Mithril goodies? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

01-23-2003, 02:49 AM	#2
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Well I really can't tell you that much on it but, the dwarves, isolated themselves from the rest of Middle-earth, so they probably kept the mithril for themselves. It could be traded in the dwarf race, but if they coveted it so much as a precious metal, it was very likely that they tried to keep it with the dwarves. And if it did get out, it was probably traded with the elves for a handsome price, and then, the elves, molded it to greatness, and imbuning special qualities or whatever. And. it seems that mithril is so rare that they kept it in their race, and it became something that they were known for. And if it was so rare, there probably wasn't that much to go around anyways... Hope that helps...it's just my opinion...I don't know for sure... __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

01-23-2003, 08:42 AM	#3
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I imagine Earendils armour, that turned the blade of Maeglin was made of Mithril, since normal armour would be tood heavy for him, as he was still young. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-23-2003, 10:54 AM	#5
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Well, if one single armor was worth more than the whole Shire, then it was certainly very rare. Some was probably traded with the elves of Eregion(if they had discovered Mithril in the Second Age?), but the most held in Khazad-Dûm. Later it was probably robbed by the orcs. __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

01-23-2003, 11:08 AM	#6
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 477	There may be no other mention of mithril used for armour in The Lord of the Rings, but many other 'mithril goodies' are mentioned in the book: Galadriel's ring, Nenya, the Ring of Water was made of mithril (and set with a diamond). The Guard of the Citadel at the Court of the Fountain (and only there) wore helms made of mithril. Their surcoats may have been embroidered in true-silver - the text isn't specific in that. The emblems and letters on Durin's Doors were made using ithildin or starmoon - which is made from mithril. The crown on the Standard of Arwen was made of mithril and gold. The new gates of the City were made of mithril and steel. The ship Vingilot that Eärendil sails through the skies was made of mithril and elven-glass. (Read again Bilbo's Song of Eärendil in Many Meetings.) [ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ] __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.

01-23-2003, 09:07 AM	#4
Jurion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 85	Mithril was indeed rare and probably found only in a few places in the world. But in the First Age the Dwarves traded much with the Elves and the Elves prized the weapons and armors made by the Dwarves. So it's very likely that a number of Elves, especially the royalty, wore armor made of Mithril. It was also said in LotR that Mithril was very expensive and that the mail given to Bibl by Thorin was worth more that the Shire.

01-27-2003, 07:14 PM	#7
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Sauron coveted mithril and had gathered most of what was left in Middle Earth. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

01-30-2003, 04:48 AM	#8
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	From a mineralogical standpoint, it is possible (and quite likely) that the minerals being mined for mithril were of a low grade. In other words, a large amount of these low grade materials were needed to produce only a small amount of mithril. The amount of mining, of digging and of tunneling, to produce something like Frodo's chainmail shirt, would have been considerable. And don't forget the nasty old Balrog. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-30-2003, 11:27 AM	#9
Ebony Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: between a hard and a rocky place Posts: 22	Although modern mining techniques allow efficient extraction of minerals from low-grade ore, I think we have to assume that the technology of ME was not advanced enough yet to do this. Since we don't know where Mithril lies on the periodic table, we don't know if is a noble metal (like gold and silver) which is easily found in it's free state in nature, or one that is more difficult to reduce, like aluminum, which is almost never found in it's free state. I have often wondered if mithril might actually be aluminum, considering it's light weight (which means it must have a low atomic weight), strong, silver in colour, and rare. Before the introduction of electricity into refining, Aluminum was a very rare and precious metal, as in nature it is nearly always combined with another element, and very difficult to reduce down to it's pure form. The difficulty with this theory, of course, is that aluminum is somewhat softer than dragon scales, but perhaps we can allow that the dwarves may have had techniques of hardening metals non-existant in our world. __________________ Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it.

01-30-2003, 01:44 PM	#10
Rindowen Guest Posts: n/a	In what chapter does it say that Bilbo's was made of mithril? ...I can't find it. Anyway, it's simply impossible to determine the value or whereabouts of the metal.. or where it all went. This question is as difficult to answer as "Are Orcs immortal?"

01-30-2003, 02:09 PM	#11
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	In the Hobbit, "Not at Home" ,and in LoTR, " Lothlorien", " The Ring goes south", " The Journey in the dark" and I think in a " Long-excpetced party." __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-31-2003, 07:09 AM	#13
Vardamar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Right over Here!! No Here!! Yoohoo! Posts: 97	As long as were on the topic of mithrel. Ive always wonderd if they made swords and axes out of mithrel. It would seem that a mithrel sword could keep a sharp edge and still be very light. __________________ Strength without wisdom falls by its own weight.

01-31-2003, 08:44 AM	#15
Grimbold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenor Posts: 88	Another factor in the low amount of mithril found in Middle-earth is probably that the Dwarf-kingdoms of Belegost and Nogrod in the northern Blue Mountains fell under the sea when Beleriand was royally wrecked. I imagine those twin kingdoms were very rich in precious stones and minerals: it was without any doubt a great economic loss for the dwarves. Speaking of economics, just to refresh my memory, how does currency generally work in Middle-earth? Gold and silver coins? It would be nice to assign a price to mithril if we could, but we know nothing about it! __________________ Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountains. Like wind in the meadow. The days have gone down in the west. Behind the hills, into shadow. How did it come to this?

01-31-2003, 09:02 AM	#16
Ebony Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: between a hard and a rocky place Posts: 22	There isn't much mention currency in the books, although in FOTR it is mentioned that Bill Ferny charged twelve silver pennies for Bill the Pony, which was three times his value. If you really thought about it, I suppose you could use that as a starting point, and work out approximate values of things from there. __________________ Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it.

02-01-2003, 05:27 AM	#17
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I think that the "light but strong" aspect of mithril has led a lot of people, myself included, to speculate that it might be aluminium. However, my own corslet of forged Coke can tabs (great call, Aluminium Saucepan Man!) has never been of much use in defending me from spear thrusts. And as for Ithildin, the substance which the west door of Moria was decorated with, I don't think that aluminium can really do that. I think that mithril was entirely invented, and that its incredible rarity was a way for Tolkien to explain why we don't see it around today. I can't recall when the Periodic Table reached its current form, but doubtless Tolkien would not have known about it anyway. If he had seen the remarkable completeness and simplicity of the table, he might have canned the idea of mithril altogether. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

02-01-2003, 07:08 AM	#18
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	Well the Aluminium idea maybe closer then you think since it says in the Sil that Mithril starts out soft like silver and only the dwarves know how to make it hard (heat treating maybe) so as its useful for Armor and such. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

02-02-2003, 10:27 PM	#19
Demloth of Dol Amroth Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 105	i dunno-i think Ebony could have a point. mithril may not be aluminum, but it might be based on it, since i remember reading in a science book about aluminum, and how this one scientist was presented a vase of aluminum, before the process for getting it cheaply was discovered, and how valuable it was. this i think was perhaps around JRRT's time (i read this like a year or two ago). so yes, i think Tolkien may have based mithril on aluminum. another thought: if mithril chain mail was so darn valuable, what d'you think that full mithril plate would cost? chew on that, fellows. [ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Demloth of Dol Amroth ] __________________ One by one the Free Lands of Middle Earth fell to the power of the Ring-but there were some, who resisted...