Barliman Butterbrain

[Diamond18]

I'm somewhat skeptical that what I'm pondering hasn't been discussed before, but as the Search function was no help at all, I'll take a gander at a new topic anyway.

In FotR, Aragorn described Barliman Butterbur as:

A fat innkeeper who only remembers his own name because people shout it at him all day.

I must say, all of Butterbur's actions and words back up this harsh statement. Yet, Gandalf assures us that though Barliman is forgetful, he is a shrewd man. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find that passage to quote, so if anyone remembers exactly where it was, I'd be delighted.

What bothers me is that Tolkien seems to show us constantly that Butterbur is rather a ridiculous character with a butterbrain. Then, he tells us through Gandalf that, no, it just looks that way. This is a big no-no in characterization and writing in general. You just don't, with good conscience, show your reader one thing and then tell him/her another.

I've been guilty of this 'sin' many a time, and been reprimanded for it. Thwacked, spanked, etc. So I notice when such an incongruity occurs in The Book of the Century. I get the idea that Tolkien started out writing Butterbur as a funny character to provide some comic relief, but later decided he should be made more serious to match the darkening tone (i.e. in RotK when they return to Scour the Shire, he is less jolly). But this creates two conflicting faces for one character, simply for the sake of the plot. Another no-no.

Frankly, with all due respect to Tolkien's prerogative as the author, I cannot believe that Barliman is shrewd just because he says he is, when he's shown me otherwise. It's like being faced with a photograph and a written description of a person. Suppose the photograph is of a young, blonde girl with pale blue eyes. Yet, the written desciption says, "Jenny is 40 years old, has raven black hair streaked with gray, and a pair of dark green eyes." I'll believe what's in the photograph, even if Jenny herself wrote the description.

So, I will now sit back and await the rebuttals. I wouldn't be surprised if I was missing or forgetting something that plausibly excuses Gandalf's statement, as I can't even find the exact statement. So no need to bludgeon me for densely heretical ideas, I'm perfectly willing to be politely proved wrong. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Carlas]

Hmm, I don't know the exact passage either, but I know what your talking about.

Though Barliman does come off as a sort of fool, I did not find it hard to believe that he is shrewd. I find that people who act a little dumb and foolish, are actually quite smart and very mischievous. Everyone seems to act differently in different situations, and Im guessing that Butterbur was shrewd when he needed to be.

Suppose the photograph is of a young, blonde girl with pale blue eyes. Yet, the written desciption says, "Jenny is 40 years old, has raven black hair streaked with gray, and a pair of dark green eyes."

Think of all the things people can do to make themselves look younger and change their eye and hair colours, they can cover up their older selves, like Butterbur can cover up his shrewd side.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I haven't anything intelligent to say on this topic, but I think found your quote. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It's in "Many Meetings."

"You don't know much ... if you think old Barliman is stupid," said Gandalf. "He is wise enough on his own ground. He thinks less than he talks, and slower; yet he can see through a brick wall in time (as they say in Bree)."

Not the highest recommendation to be had! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I agree, Butterbur seems like an honest, but somewhat slow person.

-Lily

[The Saucepan Man]

Butterbur is rather a ridiculous character with a butterbrain

How dare you say that about the character who I am, according to the BD personality test, most like, Diamond! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Actually, I can't say that I really noticed the incongruity that much before. I just thought of Butterbur as a kindly, but rather bumbling, barman. His name certainly goes with that characterisation.

But I can see what you mean about the contrast between his portrayal to the reader and Gandalf's description of him. I think that JRRT wanted to depict him as a "comfortable" character, while at the same time showing us that here was someone that Gandalf trusted (given that he entrusted Butterbur with the letter for Frodo).

I can nevertheless imagine that he did have a harder and shrewder side to him. He would have needed it, given some of the unsavoury types that seem to have frequented the Prancing Pony. It was, after all, a resting place for travellers from all over. We just don't see that side of him, since he has to appear safe and unthreatening to the Hobbits (unlike Strider, of course, when we first meet him).

Edit: Actually, having seen the quote that Lily has given, Gandalf's description doesn't seem too much at variance with the Butterbur that we meet. He is wise, not in words (or in memory obviously), but in dealing with people on his "home ground", ie the Prancing Pony. Gandalf therefore trusted him as someone who could look after the Hobbits in that environment.

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Liriodendron]

Hmmpt! Butterbrain indeed! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I suspect this could be a bit of an age thing. Quick, young people sometimes percieve us slower, older folks as *stupid*. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] As you age, you don't always say everything you "know", and you often are thinking of three or four things at once, hence, the appearance of stupidity, when it's actually just not important to "tell it all", all the time. Of course, forgeting Gandalf's letter was a real screw up, but I buy his excuse! I do stuff like that all the time, and I'm very smart! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ahem....Did he smoke that pipe weed stuff? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Well, I know what you're talking about, but I disagree with your no-no's [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] . I think that people can have contradicting personalities, but they have to be on separate planes. I know a person who absolutely lacks common sense. He will do and say some of the stupidest things, however, he can get almost perfect grades and score extremely high on tests like the SAT and others. So, obviously this person is a genius, but he is also an idiot, an extremely stupid one. But which do we call him? Well, we call him stupid on a normal basis, just joking around, or when he does or says something stupid, but when we see or hear of a high score or some outstanding academic achievment, we praise him for his intelligence.

Everybody has a talent, or has something that they are good at. And most of the time, not many, if any, know that person has that talent. Barliman probably did not show his shrewdness most of the time. He was clumbsy, no doubt, but many other smart people can be too.

And I would trust Gandalf on this. Gandalf has a knack for noticing potential qualities, and catching hidden talents. Remember Bilbo in the Hobbit? No one thought he would be the right person for the job, but just look at what he did. And even better yet, look at Pippin. Pippin, at the beginning of LotR, was a curious playful hobbit who didn't have the sense to think before he acts and he didn't take things seriously. Would you say he was impulsive and immature? Well, Gandalf saw through that when not many would. Elrond didn't want him going on the journey, but Gandalf insisted. Gandalf saw through those qualities of Pippin, just as Gandalf knew that Barliman was wiser than he looked or acted.

But why do you have this annoyance over Barliman and not over Pippin? Because we saw teh transformation with Pippin. We saw what he could do, but with Barliman, we didn't really. But based on Gandalf's quote, I believe that Barliman really is shrewd.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If you ask me the key is Gandalf's qualification 'on his own ground. As somebody said a successful innkeeper, (which Butterbur is) has to have a certain business sense and people savvy. But in the matter of the Ring he is out of his depth and knows it. Yet it must be remembered to his credit that he is 'more willing than ever' to do whatever he can to help against the Dark Lord himself. Whatever else you can say about Barliman Butterbur he is not lacking in guts, or a sound sense of priorities.

[Diamond18]

How dare you say that about the character who I am, according to the BD personality test, most like, Diamond!

Well, if it's any consolation, I got the same answer for the personality test. The other two possibilities were Samwise and Pippin. I don't know if I should be offended or delighted. Or whether I should question the result. *Consults screen name and avatar: groans*

Thanks for the quote, Lily. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I thought I remembered the use of the word 'shrewd' and an slightly more complimentary wording, but there you go. Probably explains why I had trouble finding the quote. *Recalls personality test results, and bursts into tears*

But why do you have this annoyance over Barliman and not over Pippin? Because we saw teh transformation with Pippin. We saw what he could do, but with Barliman, we didn't really. But based on Gandalf's quote, I believe that Barliman really is shrewd.

You made some good point with good ol' Pip, Willie. I pasted in the above part because it does sum up my reasons for questioning the characterization of Barliman. I've had "Show Don't Tell, You Naughty Girl" hammered into my author-brain. Perhaps if Butterbur had been chosen to go on the Quest, we wouldn't have had this discussion. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Perhaps if Butterbur had been chosen to go on the Quest, we wouldn't have had this discussion.

Haha, I bet we'd be reading Gandalf saying, "Fool of a Butterbur!...This is a serious journey, not an innkeeper's walking-party. Throw yourself in next time and you will be of no further nuisance. Now be quiet!"
but just don't give him the ring. They'd get half way to Mordor and he'd be muttering something about how there was something he was meaning to tell them but he could not remember what. And it wouldn't be until they got to Mt. Doom that he would remember: "Now what was it I was going to say? One thought drives out another...oh yes! I meant to tell you that I gave some orcs that silly ring you had me keep..."
But of course that would never happen since Butterbur is a very shrewd man, and would know better to give some orcs the one ring. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Curulin]

Sorry to lower the jovial tone, but i disagree that the incongruity that appears is a mistake.
I would agrue that it actually serves a double purpose. One, it helps to characterise Gandalf. We can see his wisdom, perceptivness, experience, etc.
Secondly, the fact that Tokien has Gandalf say this sugests that Tolkien is trying to show us that many people have hidden depths. They appear slightly stupid and bumbling on the outside, but one should never judge a book by its cover.
I think that the fact that he has included this gives the character much more depth and truth. Afterall, no one can claim to be all of one thing, everyone has different sides to them, some showing, some hidden,

[Liriodendron]

Yes ! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] We all ( well most of us [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) know this, (people have depth) but it is often tempting to jump in and make shallow one dimensional judgments about others. Especially when "gossiping"! Gandalf is the wise one! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
What is the bit of difference from Butterbur's 'hidden' wisdom, and Farmer Maggot's? Farmer M seems more macho.... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] but some of the hobbits are surprised he is such a "guy in the know". (is it Bombadil AND Gandalf that say he's smart?)

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[littlemanpoet]

Diamond, you're speaking as a writer just as much as a reader. My local writer's group have also commented that in their rereading of Tolkien, they have found that he trespasses into Telling rather than Showing on numerous occasions, and you may have found an example. I'm going to have to reread LotR myself for this, because having grown up with the story, I've been too close to it and ignorant about showing versus telling to notice - until now. Having read the quote from Gandalf, it seems that the compliment to Butterbur is rather reserved. But as Nar has pointed out (in a certain upcoming online publication), [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Tolkien does use Gandalf as a cypher for proferring huge amounts of "correct" information about all kinds of things, because he always uses Gandalf as his truth teller. So anything we get from Gandalf's lips are Tolkien's way of, frankly, telling the reader what JRRT doesn't have the time to show the reader. Interesting point! One of these days I'm going to have to look for all the "tellings" rather than "showings". My bet is that Tollers did it a lot, and not only through Gandalf.

[Diamond18]

Diamond, you're speaking as a writer just as much as a reader.

Probably even more as a writer. I've had trouble lapsing into the telling mode, so I've been paying special attention to it lately. Heightened sensitivity, you might say.

Yes ! We all ( well most of us ) know this, (people have depth) but it is often tempting to jump in and make shallow one demensional judgments about others.

I realize that in real life and in stories, people and characters can have hidden sides. I've had first hand experience with people who are not what they seemed (for better and worse), so it's not the dual nature of Butterbur I was questioning, per se. It was Tolkien's method of conveying this. Unfortunately, this was due in part to faulty memory and poor searching skills, as I had been sure Gandalf's description was more glowing. So I think I'll let Butterbur off the hook for the time being. (How benevolent. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img])

That said, I do often find myself wanting to challenge Gandalf's statements. Perhaps this has to do with the Took in me? But I think it is largely motivated by my perspective as one writer reading (and analyzing) the fictional creations of another writer. No offense, but I never forget that these characters are just that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] So I'd like to have at least some corroborative showing to go with what Gandalf says. After all, how can we know that he's wise unless his words are shown to be true? (And Tolkien does this in most places.)

[Lalaith]

Aragorn's comment about fat landlords was made directly to Butterbur himself, in retort to an insulting remark Barliman had made about him (Strider). Butterbur respected Gandalf and was hostile to Aragorn, which might colour their respective opinions of the man...
Butterbur showed he was quite a plucky old cove at the end of the book, when he mistakes the returning travellers for ruffians and comes out wielding a club to give them what for. And he is fairly astute about their ability to sort out the trouble in the Shire:

you’ve
come back changed from your travels, and you look now like folk as can deal
with troubles out of hand. I don’t doubt you’ll soon set all to rights.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Aragorn's remark about 'fat innkeepers' was more a flash of temper than a considered opinion. His tone becomes notably kinder after Butterbur states his willingness to help dispite the danger.

Aragorn's words at the Council suggest that while the Rangers may be annoyed and somewhat hurt by the Breelanders' and other country folk's attitude towards them, they don't hold a grudge.

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[doug*platypus]

"He is wise enough on his own ground. He thinks less than he talks, and slower; yet he can see through a brick wall in time (as they say in Bree)."

Personally, I don't believe it is very difficult to reconcile Gandalf's opinion of Barliman with the Butterbur we see for ourselves. And I (perhaps wrongly?) think that Gandalf was speaking those words, not Tolkien. His characters are lifelike enough to make mistakes. Gandalf by his own admission makes several, and I think that in the case of Barliman he jumps quickly to defend his friend (and beer purveyor!), perhaps exaggerating a little in the process.

Similarly, Samwise thinks of Frodo's kindness implying a fair measure of blindness, but at the same time holds the "incompatible belief" that Frodo is the wisest person in the world (with the possible exception of Gandalf). Gandalf's comments about Barley are an indication of what Gandalf thinks of him, and not the absolute, objective truth (if indeed there is such a thing!).

Secondly, the fact that Tokien has Gandalf say this sugests that Tolkien is trying to show us that many people have hidden depths. They appear slightly stupid and bumbling on the outside, but one should never judge a book by its cover.

I agree wholeheartedly with Curulin. And most importantly I believe that the remarks of Gandalf were not meant for us to gain a greater insight into the innkeeper, but to encourage us not to jump to conclusions about someone based on a very short and superficial acquaintance. Even if Barley does not possess a high degree of intelligence (personally I would place him slightly lower than Samwise in the smart stakes), Frodo has no right to label him as "stupid".

[Mister Underhill]

As a man who ran an inn at a crossroads between distant lands, Butterbur was probably a valuable source of news and information for Gandalf. He is enough in Gandalf’s confidence that the wizard reveals Frodo’s alias to him. Barliman warns the Hobbits about the “Black Men” and tries to protect them from strange characters, and he sends Nob out to fetch Merry, averting possible disaster. He does a fine job of facing down the southern travelers when they complain about their missing horses, and he acquits himself as an honest and honorable (and, as it turns out, shrewd) businessman by compensating Merry for the ponies which he later recovers. I think he lives up to the slight praise that Gandalf gives him.

Also – and I know the posts above are months old – this whole “show don’t tell” thing has become a pet peeve of mine. It’s a fine rule of thumb, but it is too often hammered into young writers as an inviolable, ironclad Law. Though shalt not tell. But I think you have to consider the source. Writing instructors and authors of how-to books preach the gospel of “show don’t tell” while authors like Tolkien use the most appropriate tool for the job. What do you see when you crack the cover of LotR? The professor begins his magnum opus with nearly 7500 words of pure telling: about Hobbits, about pipeweed (!), about the Shire. So who’s right?

“Telling” and pure exposition have their places, and there are no inviolable rules when it comes to writing prose. The only real criteria is, “Does it work?”

[mark12_30]

Bravo, Mr. Underhill.

Somehow Barliman reminds me of Sam's Gaffer; comical, but tough in a pinch, and not as stupid as he looks, either.

I think this was one of Tolkien's favorite themes; Ioreth, Sam, Pippin, and again, The Gaffer. Everybody loves to chuckle at the Gaffer, but who stood up to the Black Rider at Number Three Bagshot Row and sent him packing? "Be off!"

Speaking of Ioreth, remember Gandalf's line: Then go find someone with less lore and more wisdom who keeps athelas around for headaches... "less lore, more wisdom"-- the hidden virtues of the commoner. FOr instance, Tolkien had an appreciation for the plucky courage and bravery-in-a-pinch of the average English footsoldier. He said the same things about hobbits in general; brave enough in a pinch. He liked bringing surprises to the surface in his characters. In Aragorn's case, turns out he's royalty in disguise; in Barliman's case, turns out he has a shrewd streak. Who'd have guessed?

As for perfect memory: Even Gandalf forgot the entry spell at the gates of Moria. A few more seconds and they all would have been Watcher Munchies.


edit: Diamond 18, and Mr. Underhill, regarding "Show don't Tell", I don't think that Tolkien is using Gandalf to "Tell". I think he's showing us how Gandalf feels about Butterbur. How else would he do it? Gandalf isn't the huggy type.

It would have been "Telling" if Tolkien had said, "But Dear Reader, remember that Butturbur really had more under his hat than the average Breelander gave him credit for..." And indeed, Tolkien sometimes does that; sometimes for instance he Tells us how Sam feels about Frodo. (And I agree, Mr. Underhill, I don't mind it a bit.) But I don't think Tolkien is doing that here.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:15 PM January 14, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I am currently one of the young writers with the words "show, don't tell" being etched into my brain. Luckly, I'm also probably the single most stubborn person in my high school English class, so I am perfectly capable of ignoring my teacher when I disagree with her... although it sounds bad saying it like that. To be more explicite, I am a firm believer of writing for yourself. When you write to please other people, you tend to leave out things that, to you, are important. So, when I write, I occasionally include characters or allusions that have no further explanation than "I know why this is here, and there's a perfectly good reason for it, but since it doesn't apply to the main storyline, you don't need to know it." Occasionally a writer needs to include some vague people, places, or things... we as the reader simply don't need to know why, as curious as we may be, we just need to accept the writer's choices. After all, the story is the writer's creation, and if he is the one making it, than the writing follows his rules alone.

[doug*platypus]

Well said, O Dread Horseman!

I think he lives up to the slight praise that Gandalf gives him.

This is the key to the whole discussion, in my opinion. Gandalf never says anything along the lines of "Barley? He's the smartest man within a day's ride of the Chetwood!". No, he is far too cautious and wise for that. Gandalf neither underrates nor overrates Butterbur's worth, and that is how his statement can be so believable.

Even Gandalf forgot the entry spell at the gates of Moria.

I don't like to nitpick... well, okay I do, but only because it might make me seem more intelligent! Gandalf never knew the opening spell to the West-Gate of Moria. Even if this cannot be proven by the Tale of Years, it is (I believe) inferred in the text outside West-Gate. While Gandalf does prattle on about how many opening spells he once knew, he does not say that he knew the spell for this door. In the days of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain the door was always open, and since Khazad-Dûm became Moria, Gandalf entered only once, from the East-Side.

[Finwe]

Gandalf's whole "power" is the ability to see into the hearts of those that he encountered, and inspire them to rise up against the Dark Lord. In any event, he would have seen the hidden strength in everyone he encountered, due to his mission and his possession of Narya. True, Barliman seemed rather butterbrained, but if he had been brilliant, the story might have gone differently. If he had remembered to give the hobbits Gandalf's letter, then they might have left before meeting Aragorn, and that would not have been good at all.

[doug*platypus]

Good point, Finwe! and a prime candidate as an example of Success through Failure in Middle-Earth.

Once Aragorn began to trail the hobbits after they returned to the road, I think he would have taken any opportunity to introduce himself to them. So the fact that Barley waited a couple of hours to pass the letter on doesn't make too much difference. But definitely, the fact that he did not send the letter to the Shire has some connotations for the timing of events.

What would have happened if Frodo had received the letter on time? No chance meeting with Gildor, or perhaps more importantly Aragorn? Or would his early departure have meant he would reach Rivendell before the Nazgûl could catch up to him? I wonder if Merry and Pippin would still have been forewarned of Frodo's plan? They did almost as much for the fulfillment of the quest as Frodo and Sam. The link I provided above is a good place to answer these questions.

[HerenIstarion]

'Show don't tell' principle, hm...

Brought up as a supplementary read to (Plot+Characters)*Voice^2=Literature? by Lindolirian