Dúnedain Survival Rations

[Numenorean]

Reading Unfinished Tales the other night I came across the following passage written about the time of Isildurs death:
P.276
"Each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days - not indeed the Miruvor or the Lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten"

I haven't read any of the HoME books yet and was wondering if there is any evidence (anywhere) to suggest that these 'arts of Númenor' survived in any way to the time of Aragorns Dúnedain?

[Lalaith]

Perhaps cram was a remnant of this?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Cram was Dwarvish, Dwarves never went to Númenor.

Of course, there was Andúril, but other than that, I can't think of any examples. Whatever was remembered was almost certainly kept in the House of Elrond, so I see no reason to believe that the arts were lost. Also, we never really see the Dúnedain up-close; just a general description in RotK and Aragorn's first description.

[Mauwurz]

Manwe Sulimo: Cram was not dwarvish it was used by the Dale-men and by the men of Esgaroth before that "I thought it was merely Cram such as the Dale men use"
This is what Gimli said when the Fellowship were in Lothlorien and were given Lembas.

[The Saucepan Man]

... the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten.

Well the medicinal arts of Numenor were certainly alive and well in the Dunedain, as witnessed by Aragorn's healing skills. It is by means of this ability that the people of Gondor recognised his credentials as the heir of Isildur.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Well the medicinal arts of Numenor were certainly alive and well in the Dunedain, as witnessed by Aragorn's healing skills. It is by means of this ability that the people of Gondor recognised his credentials as the heir of Isildur.

They were alive in the Dunedain of the North... the healing ability had been lost long ago in the south, as is evidenced by Ioreth's distaste for the idea of using Athelas on the injured people.

I would guess, that even in the North, these pieces of lore were declining. Aragorn was the longest lived of the chieftains for many generations. Longevity seems to run hand in hand with purity of Numenorean "essence"-- if that's the word I'm looking for. I was under the impression that Aragorn had learned much of what he knew of healing and such in Rivendell from Elrond. I would be hesitant to say that it was flourishing in the community of Dunedain at large.

Sophia

[lindil]

The Dunedain's

Miruvor or the Lembas

were imitations, but still effective, of that of the Elves, as the quote says.

Whether it was the same 'corn' i.e. grain derived from Valinor, but not tended by Eldar and so not infusded, generation after generation by their 'magic' or whether it was normal 'grain' tended with what 'magic' the Dunedain possesed we do not know. I tend to think that it was a special grain given to the Numenoreans, along with many other gifts, like the scion of the White Tree, and the Palantiri, and Aldarion and Erendis' birds.

The Elves and Valar were apparently free anmd generous with such things as were suitable to the Dunedain.

So we know from, the initial quote that the miruvor and waybread had some relationship to their elvish counterparts, so I imagine they were 'processed' in the same way, but were composed of simialr but 'lesser' [i.e. mortal]ingredients and magics.

But Aragorn having a stash of such semi-lembas might explain how he slept so little on the trip.

He may have been constrained by custom from sharing it with 'lesser' mortals except in the direst need. Or more likely, he had lived off the Dunedain versions [actually Arwen would have been in charge of it in Rivendell, when she was there, so he may have had the real deal for many years] and this may have altered his constitution to a such a degree that he could endure far, beyond normal mortal weariness.

[ April 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Lalaith]

Lindil, forgive me, but *were* the elves generous with lembas? I seem to remember that there were very few instances of them giving lembas to non-elves - Melian gave it to someone - I think Beren - and then Galadriel of course to the Fellowship.

[lindil]

No the Elves were not as a rule generous with Lembas, I was referring to the special position of the Dunedain in Numenor, before the 'darkening', when the Elves visited regularly, and Eonwe had instructed them at the founding of the isle.

I think it likely that a Numenorean version of Lembas and miruvor was begun then, under immortal patronage, but with still somewhat lesser ingredients.

It could be that they new form lore that the Elves [and Ainur] had such things and did there best to copy it entirely on their own, but that to my mind is less likely.

The Dunedain during their frequent periods as 'allies' to the High-Elves and at the Founding of Numenor, to the victorius Valinorean army, were privy to many things in the relams of arts and crafts. We however have only sketchy details as to specifics.

[One Axe to Rule them All]

another piece of evidence from the dunedian arts is in ROTK when aragorn heals Eowyn and Merry from their wounds when they kill the king of the nazgul....

think about it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[lindil]

If I recall, Aragorn specifically attributes his healing gifts to the bit of the 'half-elven' strain he has. So it might not be the best case in point for general Dunedainiac Arts.

The Swords from Tyrn Gorthad.

The 'waybread' and 'miruvor'.

The staffs given by Faramir.

The stone work in Early Gonodrian building.

The Gondorian healing skills.

Gondorian ship building.

tThose are all that come right to mind.

[ April 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

But Aragorn having a stash of such semi-lembas might explain how he slept so little on the trip.

This gave me the funniest mental image of Aragorn buzzing on some kind of caffeinated crackers. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks for the laugh, lindil, although I don't think you meant for it to be funny.

Was there special virtue to the staffs given by Faramir? I don't remember reading that anywhere...

Sophia

[lindil]

Boy, you got me, I am pretty sure that in addition to the mention in TTT there was a a long excursus somewhere by Tolkien on them.

But it could be one of those things I dreamed about... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] as I can not think of where it would be other than letters [or the Vinyar Tengwar journals]which is where I am off to right now.

[doug*platypus]

When I read about what the Numenoreans had in their wallets, I was actually a little disappointed. The detailed explanation of how many miles they would march every day likewise was a bit too much for me.

I think that overexplaining is a trait that's all too common in many fantasy and science fiction stories. I like the fact that JRRT was trying to explain to us exactly how these guys worked, but I think the effect is better when it isn't delved into too much. Like lembas and miruvor - we know that they exist, but damned if we know how. We know that the Numenoreans were capable of great feats of strength, but having it broken down into detail doesn't make it any more impressive; probably less so.

But I like the bit where the Orcs drag the Numenoreans out and slay them with their big claws. Grisly.

[The Saucepan Man]

If I recall, Aragorn specifically attributes his healing gifts to the bit of the 'half-elven' strain he has. So it might not be the best case in point for general Dunedainiac Arts.

But wasn't Aragorn's "half-elven" strain attributable to him being a descendant of the line of Elros? In which case attributing his healing skills to that strain is akin to attributing it his Numenorean descent. Also, it is by his healing skills that Aragorn is recognised in Minas Tirith as Isildur's heir, suggesting that it was part of his Numenorean ancestry.

By the way, welcome back, Mr Platypus. Good to see you again. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

doug*platypus:

but having it broken down into detail doesn't make it any more impressive; probably less so.

Yep, that's very true, and that's a reason why I love Jolly old Tom Bombadil. Oh, and welcome back, where have you been all this time? Maybe you were searching for a new avatar (it's a very nice one), but The Saucepan Man is right, it's good to see you again. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

"Each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days - not indeed the Miruvor or the Lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten"

I do think that these arts survived to Aragorn's age. I don't think he mentioned it when Gimli was talking about the lembas and cram because I think that it was probably supposed to be kept secret. But I don't think that the Dunedain forgot, I actually think that Tolkien forgot.

[ April 23, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Snowdog]

Unfinished Tales the other night I came across the following passage written about the time of Isildurs death:
P.276
"Each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days - not indeed the Miruvor or the Lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten"

I had always taken the meaning Tolkien had for these mentions of when the lore was "forgotten" that he meant it was forgotten today, not anytime before, or even soon after the War of the Ring.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Aragorn's healing ability is due to the fact that he is descended from Lúthien (one of the 'children of Lúthien), like Elrond, not that he is a Númenórean.

Letter #155:

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A.[ragorn] is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.

LR, 'The Houses of Healing':

‘Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,’ he [Aragorn] said. ‘Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power.’

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Ardamir the Blessed

Aragorn's healing ability is due to the fact that he is descended from Lúthien (one of the 'children of Lúthien), like Elrond, not that he is a Númenórean.

But all the kings of Numenor were descended from Luthien, so couldn't we expect others of this line to have the same ability? Actually, it might be even more potent in the women: if it is derived from the elvish portion of their blood, the women elves tended to be the more skilled healers, since they did not fight. It always seems to me that Aragorn and Elrond are held up as two examples of male healers, Aragorn especially, being a warrior.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Yes, all that line had the ability. I believe that the ability was derived from the Maia portion of their blood (from Melian):

The published Silmarillion:

Melian was the name of a Maia who served both Vána and Estë;

Estë the gentle, healer of hurts and of weariness, is his [Irmo's] spouse.

So Melian had probably the ability.