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03-26-2003, 09:02 AM | #1 |
Wight
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Control over The One Ring
I have consistently read on this forum that no one could ever use the One Ring without having their wills bent towards the will of Sauron and, eventually, Sauron would recover the ring, no matter who was the new bearer.
Of course, Im excluding Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the 2 blue wizards here, since all maiar I assume they could control the Ring to their wills, and they would ultimately destroy Sauron and take over his place. I know they would become terrible Dark Lords in their own terms. But my main concern is about the other Powers on Middle Earth that could ensnare the One Ring. Case by case: 1. Tom Bombadil. Since we dont know his nature, we do know taht the Ring had no effect over him. I.e., he had control over the Ring's effects over him. But if he wanted to use it for his purposes, would he be able to? I think it would depend on what his nature is... a maiar? 2. Fangorn. Could and Ent use the Ring? Since it was a mighty living being, with power and ages of wisdom and self control, could he use the Ring? Or would he be twisted to a bad plant???? 3. Galadriel. My main concern over my Tolkien-reading life. Being the most powerful elf on M.E., and already a ring bearer, could she take it? I assume her power would grow big enough to challenge Sauron and eventually defeat him. And I am sure that she would turn evil in time... But some disagree and think that Sauron would eventually recover his Ring from her finger and make her pay for it... 4. Elrond and Cirdan. Powerful elves, too. A ring bearer and one who used to have Narya. Could they posses the Ring and resist Sauron? 5. Aragorn. Since of numenorean blood and high lineage, could he take the Ring and use it wisely enough to drive his forces and overcome Sauron? 6. The Lord of the Nazgul. Could he? A powerful wizard, even though dominated by Sauron's will, he had domination over the other Nazgul. So, with the aid of the One Ring, could he challenge Sauron's will? 7. The Balrog. A maiar, so I pressume he could effectively take the One Ring and overthrow Mordor and its Lord.
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03-26-2003, 10:49 AM | #2 |
Haunting Spirit
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Sauron was the master of the Ring. There were many that could have competed Sauron with the Ring, like Galadriel, Gandalf, Aragorn, and many others. And should they have won using the Ring, they would've been corrupted eventually. And a new Dark Lord/Lady would have arisen. After several millenias, Sauron would have stepped into the room and taken the Ring. Nobody could ensnare the ring, save maybe some Ainu much greater than Sauron. Anybody else would become ensnared him/herself.
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03-26-2003, 04:18 PM | #3 |
Wight
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The Balrog would probably be able to control it- after all, how much more corrupted could he become?
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03-26-2003, 04:31 PM | #4 | ||||||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Iarhen, good questions. First, you said
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And back to that same thing, they can't control the ring. only Sauron can, and that's why he is the Lord of the rings. The ring has it's own will binded with Saurons and the ring does not let other's control it. It will trick its bearer and manipulate it for its own device and benefit. So, the ring actually controls the user. Just because the bearer might be more powerful with the ring than Sauron is, doesn't mean they won't eventually fall. They can and probably will, but besides that, if the ring is never destroyed, that means that Sauron will live on. And I think if you give him enough time, he will eventually regain the ring. Now, to the other stuff. Tom Bombadil: Quote:
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Fangorn: Quote:
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Galadriel: Quote:
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Elrond and Cirdan: Quote:
Aragorn: Quote:
The Lord of the Nazgul: Quote:
The Balrog: Quote:
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03-26-2003, 04:34 PM | #5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Meoshi:
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Sorry for double-posting but Meoshi posted while I was still typing.
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03-26-2003, 04:42 PM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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If Gandalf or any others would have taken the ring, they would have still been bent towards the will of Sauron. The only way to destroy Sauron was to destroy the ring, but they would have used the ring and become corrupted, and not have destroyed it. This is what Sauron wanted. There were none that could use the ring(I think) without becoming corrupted, Frodo nearly made it, but in the end could not help it. I think it might actually be harder, if you have great powers like Gandalf. It would be so tempting to have more, this is probably why Gandalf didn't take it in the first place.
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03-26-2003, 05:41 PM | #7 | |||
A Northern Soul
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Quote:
In response to the main question: Only Gandalf would be able to accomplish such a feat. Tolkien says so. Any other beings that had ideas about being able to control the One Ring were deceived. Part of its power was deceiving others into thinking that they could use it. Gandalf is the only person who could (be expected to) defeat Sauron, but even after Sauron's body's destruction, the Ring would still corrupt Gandalf. Though he would do good, his 'good' would eventually be bad. Letter No. 246: Quote:
It is also important to note that this line is explaining a hypothetical situation that may not even have been possible. The 'in any case' is like saying 'in the unlikely (or impossible) event that Elrond or Galadriel did obtain the Ring and keep it from Sauron': Quote:
[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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03-26-2003, 06:32 PM | #8 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Wow, great post, Legolas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And thanks for providing that extract for the Letters. I have always felt that, of those in ME at the end of the Third Age, only Gandalf would have had any chance of successfully using the Ring against Sauron. It is a point that has been touched upon on a number of threads recently, and I have found it difficult to pull together my thoughts and establish a line of reasoning to back up my "gut instinct". But that Letter sets it all out so clearly and concisely. I really must get hold of the Letters.
One thing, though. The extract from the Letter does not mention Saruman. As one of the Istari, he was "a creature of the same order" as Sauron, just as Gandalf was. Doesn't the same reasoning that posits a possible Gandalf victory over Sauron equally apply to Saruman (and the other Istari, too, for that matter)? Or did his descent into malice and treachery somehow diminish his powers, just as Radagast's disinterest in the task at hand might have diminished his?
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03-26-2003, 07:41 PM | #9 | |||||
A Northern Soul
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Thanks!
All the signs we're given point to Gandalf as the greatest of the Istari without competition. From Letter No 156: Quote:
The following are from Unfinished Tales. Quote:
Gandalf is equal to Sauron at the least, since they were equal in their beginnings and Sauron had presumably weakened as he spread out his power in his various evil projects: Quote:
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This has been discussed a few times, including these two threads: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001982 http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000780 [ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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03-26-2003, 11:36 PM | #10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Thanks for the Letters, Legolas. Very enlightening.
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03-27-2003, 10:15 AM | #11 |
Haunting Spirit
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Well, couldn't a Vala use the Ring without being corrupted? After all, the Valar are much greater than Sauron.
And good points, akhtenen. They did overpower Sauron.
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03-27-2003, 11:01 AM | #12 |
A Northern Soul
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You don't "overpower" a wild animal to get it in a cage. You outsmart it. The peoples of Middle-earth did not overpower Sauron; they outsmarted him, and, in an event of 'chance,' destroyed him.
[ March 27, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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03-27-2003, 07:58 PM | #13 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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But first, resisting the temptation which the Ring offered, they beat the evel will of Sauron with the power of wisdom, hope and humility. Btw, the one who really hoped to outsmart the Dark Lord was Boromir. Where did it get him? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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03-27-2003, 10:16 PM | #14 |
A Northern Soul
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Boromir was trying to outsmart Sauron at his own game. A very silly idea. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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03-28-2003, 11:56 AM | #15 |
Wight
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I think that you are all missing the basic point here. Wether or not Sauron is the master of the ring does not matter. There are those that can, possesing the ring, turn it to their will and destroy Sauron. This would then mean that they are the master of the one ring (wether or not it would decrease in power or continue to have any power at all has never been stated by tolkien or chris tolkien and therefore cannot be determined). In either case the destruction of Sauron without the destruction of the ring is definetly possible although the destroyer would him/herself be corrupted in the process. This is explicitly stated at the Council of Elrond in FOTR. If you did not realize this I reccomend a little re-reading.
Dondagnirion
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03-28-2003, 04:00 PM | #16 | |||||
A Northern Soul
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Quote:
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'Council of Elrond': Quote:
I recommend you read up a little, chief. [ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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03-29-2003, 11:06 AM | #17 |
Wight
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However, I DO think that Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel overopowered Sauron when they rejected the One Ring.
The objective of Sauron, and the will which towards he bent all his power, was to dominate others. The creation of the One Ring was with the sole purpose of controlling elves, men and dwarves. When Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrond rejected the ring, they overpowered it because they could not be mastered by the power of the Ring. They were their own masters, and their will was able to resist Sauron's will, and they defeated him when they rejected the ring because the Ring did not have power over them. Not only did they outsmart him, they overpowered him.
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"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring. |
03-29-2003, 12:02 PM | #18 |
A Northern Soul
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No, they didn't outpower him by rejecting the Ring. They out-willed him, you could say, but not outpowered him.
Resistance is not overpowering. Overpower - To overcome or vanquish by superior force; subdue. To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm. By simply resisting the Ring, they avoided one of Sauron's traps, but Sauron could defeated them still by pure military force. Resisting the Ring was more of a good thing for Sauron. By resisting it, it was definite that Sauron would never have to match himself up against Galadriel, Elrond, or Gandalf. Whether he would've defeated them or not, it would have been very tiring for him to face such an adversary. Taking the Ring from a hobbit would've been so much easier. They overpowered the Ring's power to tempt them to use it, but that is all. That is not overpowering Sauron. [ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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03-29-2003, 12:41 PM | #19 |
Wight
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Youre right, they overpowered the Ring, not Sauron himself.
BTW, I have another question. Since Sauron was only manifested in spirit when the War of the Ring was held, how would he be able to take the Ring if he had no hand? ... This sounds so stupid, but this has been troubling me for the past few days... Immediately after Sauron recovered the Ring, would he gain physical form again? Or just his spirit would gain all its former power and subdue all other powers on M.E.?
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"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring. |
03-29-2003, 12:59 PM | #20 |
A Northern Soul
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He did have physical form, actually. That of a man, except moderately larger. The movie made Sauron out to be a huge eye or something.
I wrote an article about this here: http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_sauronform.asp [ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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03-31-2003, 12:28 PM | #21 |
Wight
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'Council of Elrond':
quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 'Alas, no,' said Elrond. 'We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thus if one was able to defy the Ring's will, they would not be corrupted by it, as that was part of its will. I recommend you read up a little, chief. That was said by Legolas. Two things here. Yes, it is true I said the new darklord / onering master would be corrupted and I WAS wrong about that, I admit it. But my basic point in my post which, granted, was not all that well articulated, was that even if Sauron was the rings only master and that he was part of the ring did not matter because Gandalf could still use the ring and overthrow Sauron in the process, as well as specific others. I was not saying either way that any one specific thing would happen after someone capable of doing this did it, but that there were a few possibilities. I am sorry for being unclear in my last post about what I was saying. I hope this clarifies my sleep-post and shows that I do not have to do much re-reading, cheif. Dondagnirion
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03-31-2003, 01:16 PM | #22 | ||
Haunting Spirit
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Given that, according to Tolkien, only Gandalf could have successfully wielded the Ring to cast down Sauron, I have some comments about what Sauron actually feared from the fellowship. Gandalf himself mentions the following:
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Also, Aragorn says the following after looking into the Palantir: Quote:
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03-31-2003, 01:29 PM | #23 |
Hidden Spirit
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The point isn't that nobody could wield the Ring, Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo and Sam all wielded it to a degree, the point is that they can not use it without eventually turning evil. Turning evil is not something that a person can be allowed to do, so the free peoples can't wield the Ring.
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03-31-2003, 03:00 PM | #24 | ||
A Northern Soul
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Quote:
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[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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04-01-2003, 08:18 AM | #25 |
Wight
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All of this makes me wonder though: What effect would the Ring have had on Dragons,Eagles or even normal animals,should they have it put on their fingers/claws(hooves/fins?)I really wonder.
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04-01-2003, 10:06 AM | #26 | |||
Late Istar
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Legolas wrote:
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This (and the whole plot of the book) suggest that Gandalf was morally stronger than Saruman, but give no clear indication that he was stronger than him in terms of power, knowledge, or anything else. I would say that in some ways Gandalf was superior but in others Saruman was. Quote:
You do make a good point with the quote about Cirdan. I would say that Gandalf was wiser than Saruman and had greater strength of will and a greater ability to shape the counsels of Men and Elves. But I think that Saruman had greater skill and knowledge and possibly greater personal power. In the end, Gandalf's greater wisdom and willpower serve him better than Saruman's skill. Iarhen wrote: Quote:
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04-01-2003, 02:29 PM | #27 | ||
A Northern Soul
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04-01-2003, 03:43 PM | #28 | |
Late Istar
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That Gandalf was equal to Sauron in their beginning does not tell us all that much about their status at the end of the third age. Most importantly, Gandalf was at that point incarnate and was thus clearly of lesser personal power than he was in the beginning. Also, I'm not sure that "coeval and equal" necessarily means precisely equal in overall strength/power. It could be more loosely interpreted as meaning that they belonged to the same order of beings and that they were comparable in strength.
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04-01-2003, 06:45 PM | #29 | ||
A Northern Soul
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[ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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04-01-2003, 07:16 PM | #30 | ||
Late Istar
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Unfortunately I don't have my copy of Letters with me at the moment - but what is the context of this statement? What precedes it? To whom does 'others' refer (i.e. who has already been addressed and is being distinguished from the 'others'?) Also bear in mind that the discussion in that letter is concerned solely with the case where Gandalf, or Galadriel, or whoever else actually has the Ring and uses it. There's a big difference between saying that Gandalf with the Ring could defeat Sauron and saying that Gandalf is more powerful than Sauron. Quote:
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04-01-2003, 11:48 PM | #31 |
A Northern Soul
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The 'others' in reference to people other than Aragorn and Frodo, particularly the Wise.
I do (and did) realize that Tolkien explanation there seemed lacking, but he must've been keeping it relatively short for the letter's sake. The fact that he did say 'only' still indicates to me that Gandalf was the only period. That he is referring to the Wise in the passage would to me exclude Saruman as a possible victor over Sauron because he was considered such (whether he was or not) in being the leader of the White Council. If he is referring only to the Wise and others involved in the War of the Ring, I do suppose that would leave it open to the other Istari, though CT and Saruman observe Radagast as a being of lesser stature. (No offense, Aiwendil [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) Edit: misread one of your questions. [ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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04-03-2003, 09:54 AM | #32 | ||
Late Istar
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04-03-2003, 04:41 PM | #33 |
A Northern Soul
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Yes, it's by no means an absolute measure. I am too, actually. Tried registering 'Radagast' previously.
[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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