Ent-wives slaves

[Morsul the Dark]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this but I can't find the thread about food production in Mordor...

anyway heres the general Idea someonme argued there have to be fields east of mordor so saruon can feed his people. well if this is true I can imagine orcs tending them so is it possible the entwives were enslaved by sauron to attend the fields under threat of fire the brownlands could possibly be the site of battle in which they were enslaved....?

[Lord Melkor]

The armies of Mordor are fed by extensive fields around the Sea of Nurn and are tended to by human slaves, as explained in RotK. The vast majority of these slaves are probably from Rhun and Harad, send as tribute to Mordor. It is possible that the Entwives were captured by Sauron to be used as caretakers for his fields, but that is doubtful. I reckon the number of guards needed to make sure the Entwives would not escape would've made human slaves far more costeffective. After all, though the Entwives were not as wild as the male Ents I think they would still pose a formidable challenge to a band of Orcs. It is more likely that they were all killed in the Second Age when Sauron destroyed the lands of the Entwives, turning them into the Brown Lands.

[Celebuial]

I think Lord Melkor hit the nail on the head with his post... but can you imagine how bad a bunch of slaves the Entwives would've been if they were anything like the Ents? They would've been slow to do anything and surely exceedingly hard to controll not to mention the fact that they seem even more moody and seem to be a little more motivated and decisive... A funny image though isn't it? A group of Uruks beeing stamped on and hurled about by a bunch of angry hormonal 'living trees'! That'll teach 'em to mess around with nature and an angry woman.

[Mänwe]

Alas the "Master" himself suggests that the Ent-wives may have been slaves. I quote and apologise for the long quote but it is needed;

"I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it2). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know." - (Letter #144) [My emphasis]

I therefore find the idea of Ent-wives being enslaved far from ludicrous and rather possible, not just because Tolkien himself suggested it! But that,'man' is able to subdue and domesticate eliphants which bear the same size ratio with man, as an Ent-wife would to an orc.

[JennyHallu]

They would've been slow to do anything and surely exceedingly hard to controll not to mention the fact that they seem even more moody and seem to be a little more motivated and decisive...

I'm not sure...I kind of got the impression the Entwives had less patience than their mates, and would be more likely to accept an enforced order.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

Alas the "Master" himself suggests that the Ent-wives may have been slaves. I quote and apologise for the long quote but it is needed;

"I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it2). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know." - (Letter #144) [My emphasis]

I therefore find the idea of Ent-wives being enslaved far from ludicrous and rather possible, not just because Tolkien himself suggested it! But that,'man' is able to subdue and domesticate eliphants which bear the same size ratio with man, as an Ent-wife would to an orc.

Hmmm. Hmmm. Do I smell the possibility of an RPG? A fairly ambitious RPG as it would involve ent characters, who aren't especially well represented in our RPGs here, and, more so, female ents, who aren't even represented in LotR! Wow, talk about the difficulty in creating canonical characters in an RPG.

It would be a game exploring the biotechnology proclivities of Sauron et al. Perhaps the entwives were, as the elves were, broken and degraded, but not to become orcs; instead, to become genetically engineered ents?

Monsauron!

Frankenents!

On the other hand, a depiction of Entwives becoming, in Tolkien's words, "more anarchic" would have some very interesting mythological possibilities. Amerindian legends are full of stories of how women and female spirits are more daring and imaginative than their male counterparts. Perhaps this kind of RPG would explore how the Entwives became more Eve-like and refused restrictions? Would Tolkien really have wanted Entwives to be like Lilith? What a fascinating avenue to explore.

[JennyHallu]

I don't think that by more anarchic Tolkien meant Lilith. The Entwives' fatal flaw wasn't that they were lovers of order and plan, but that they refused to accept or value the wildness the Ents loved. By more anarchic, I think he meant that they themselves should be less willing to attempt to impose their will on others. Perhaps Tolkien means to imply that had they welcomed the Ents into their gardens, mud and wildness and all, and created something new, bigger than the wilderness or the garden, they might have all survived together and in strength.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

I...can you imagine how bad a bunch of slaves the Entwives would've been if they were anything like the Ents? They would've been slow to do anything and surely exceedingly hard to controll not to mention the fact that they seem even more moody and seem to be a little more motivated and decisive... A funny image though isn't it?

To play Devil's Advocate, the Ents sure weren't slow or unmotivated when they leveled Isengard...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Sardy

To play Devil's Advocate, the Ents sure weren't slow or unmotivated when they leveled Isengard...

Also, entwives themselves seem to be highly eficient in matters of agriculture, imposing their own order upon nature.

I think there is an interesting paralel between the story of the ents & entwives:

Originally Posted by Treebeard, TTT

But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have both lost all that we now have

and that of Aragorn and Arwen:

Originally Posted by The third age, Prologue and appendices to LotR, HoME XII

Then Arwen departed and dwelt alone and widowed in the fading woods of Loth-lorien; and it came to pass for her as Elrond foretold that she would not leave the world until she had lost all for which she made her choice.

[Mänwe]

Something rather amusing in support of Sardy’s point on the speed of Ents I was directed to the following quote;

“'Tolkien made various calculations of the length and speed of an Ent-stride, adjusting to what he felt the distance and length of the journey required. His final conclusion was probably that 'an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least , probably at 4ft a stride.' This meant about 2.2 strides of 4ftper second, covering a distance of 53.3 miles, at a speed of about 6 miles per hour. (Other calculations note that at 2 strides per second, 70, 00 strides would take 9.2/3 hours, and 70,000 strides of 3 feet would be about 40 miles)…"

In another note, Tolkien writes;

"Ents are (as long as they can drink running water) almost tireless. They can go at c.12 m.p.h. - averaging say 10 hours (even 24) at a stretch. Max {imum} speed of Treebeard was 20 m.p.h. when charging.” - (Companion to LOTR by Hammond & Scull)

20m.p.h is a respectable speed for something that has lived longer than the average Grandparent! Though I confess I do not know the “notes of Tolkien” from which they have taken this. Thus this illustrates their power and usefulness especially within the highly labour intensive practice of agriculture.

And so raise a little contention with Lord Melkor’s point that they would not be cost effective. The size and obvious “power” of the Ent would surely be worth a hundred human slaves, which all require feeding in order to survive (barely) so they might continue their labour. And Ent on the other hand need no food, other than “running water”, which given in the quote above, would make them tireless.

Again making them more cost effective and efficient than human slaves who at some point no matter how much whipping will need to rest, it seems to me that the cost of a few more guards per Ent then for human would be very much worth it.


Secondly I would like to draw attention to following pencilled note Tolkien made in one of this letters;

“…and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna.'” - (Letter #247)

I use this quote to suggest that the disappearance of the Ent-wives was because of their devotion to Yavanna. Like Radagast became enamoured with the birds and beasts of Middle Earth (I need not provide the quote, I am sure everyone has heard it a dozen times) they too became “as one” with nature and consequently became tree-ish.

“’Oh, no!’ said Treebeard. ’None have died from inside, as you might say. Some have fallen in the evil chances of the long years, of course, and more have gone tree-ish.” - (Treebeard, The Two Towers)

They did not pass away, but simply became trees, perhaps because of their devotion to Yavanna at an accelerated rate then the male variety. Comments?

Raynor also brings an interesting parallel which I think can be tied into the fate of the Ent-wives. The quote he uses (I include the sentence before for purposes I shall make clear);

“We believe that we may meet again in a time to come, and perhaps we shall find somewhere a land where we can live together and both be content. But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have both lost all that we now have.” - (Treebeard, The Two Towers)

All spirits from those of the living depart to the Halls of Mandos, Arwen waits for the time when her life is spent and she will find herself there, only then will she meet with Aragorn again.

I therefore propose that this is what the Ents are waiting for the loss of existence, either through destruction or their change into more tree-ish beings (perhaps the spirit does not leave), and is the “land” that they will find the Ent-wives. For were they not all spirits inhabiting tree structures? Do I stand on firm ground or is it all cock and bull nonsence?

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

The armies of Mordor are fed by extensive fields around the Sea of Nurn and are tended to by human slaves, as explained in RotK. The vast majority of these slaves are probably from Rhun and Harad, send as tribute to Mordor. It is possible that the Entwives were captured by Sauron to be used as caretakers for his fields, but that is doubtful. I reckon the number of guards needed to make sure the Entwives would not escape would've made human slaves far more costeffective. After all, though the Entwives were not as wild as the male Ents I think they would still pose a formidable challenge to a band of Orcs. It is more likely that they were all killed in the Second Age when Sauron destroyed the lands of the Entwives, turning them into the Brown Lands.

They were killed? Treebeard'll be dissapointed....