Merry and Pippen's escape from Grishnakh - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

12-26-2002, 07:24 AM

I am half way through reading LOTR for the second time. For the second time now I have become stumped at the same place. Merry and Pippen are taken by Grishnakh while Ugluk was busy during the raid by the Riders of Rohan, because he knows about the ring and wants is for himself. When he is far enough away he starts fingering the hobbits in search of the ring. Pippen guesses that this is what he is doing and tries to work the situation to his advantage.
"'I don't think you will find it that way' he whispered. It isn't easy to find'
'Find it?' asked Grishnakh: his fingers stopped crawling and gripped Pippen's shoulder. 'Find what. What are you talking about little one?'
For a moment Pippen was silent then in the darkness he made a noise in his throat:gollum,gollum. 'Nothing, my precious,' he added.
The hobbits felt Grishnakh's fingers twitch. 'O ho! Very, Ve-ry dangerous, my little ones.'"
The first time I read that (it seems stupid now, but I thought maybe Gollum was watching and was going to kill Grishnakh to save "his precious" and the hobbits at the same time.)
Anyway, the thing that stumps me was the mention of Gollum (or atleast Pippen making the gollum sound in his throat). Did Pippen really think that Gollum was there? Did he guess that Grishnakh was around when Gollum was tortured to find out where the ring was?
These are the two best reasons I can think of for this. Does anyone else have agree or have any other ideas?

Manwe Sulimo · 12-26-2002, 08:05 AM

Grishnakh was a high-ranking Uruk in the forces of Mordor (otherwise he wouldn't be leading that expedition of Uruks), so he probably had received orders to look out for Gollum (either for the expedition, or years before when they were Sauron was hunting Gollum). Pippin was just smart enough to make the connection between the orc of Mordor and the hunt for the Ring.

12-26-2002, 08:15 AM

That certainly makes sense! I guess that was the first time that Pippen really showed his smarts! (Well, guess the first time was when he dropped his elven broach on the plains.)

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-26-2002, 08:18 AM

I thought it was Gollum the first time I read it! Then I looked back and realised that Grishnakh would be about what? 3-4 times bigger than Gollum?

lathspell · 12-26-2002, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Anyway, the thing that stumps me was the mention of Gollum (or atleast Pippen making the gollum sound in his throat). Did Pippen really think that Gollum was there? Did he guess that Grishnakh was around when Gollum was tortured to find out where the ring was?

If Pippin thought that Gollum was there, it would be, in my eyes, rahter stupid. He knew that Gollum knew Frodo had the Ring. Or, at least that Gollum would go after the Hobbit named Baggins. But I think he knew about Frodo having the Ring after all the conversations he must have heard in Moria and on the Anduin.
So, I think it would be the second thought as well. He may not have been around then, but I guess that he heard about Gollum and knew that a Hobbit caried something of great value.

greetings,
lathspell

doug*platypus · 12-26-2002, 07:42 PM

You're right, it does sound weird when Pippin starts acting all Gollumy. I think it's so that there's no doubt that he's talking about the Ring, without mentioning it specifically. He's trying to be sneaky, playing games with Grishnakh, and doesn't want to just come straight out with it.

Maybe it's possible that Grishnakh was one of Gollum's torturers, or that he had a spy or a mate who was.

**lindil** · 12-26-2002, 09:34 PM

He is simply trying to reinforce the orcs ideas about the ring [ and to imply he [ pip] has it without mentioning it.

Pippin realizes [or hopes]
the [mordor] Orcs have guessed this and that they have seemingly connected the ring to Gollum.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Luinadar · 12-27-2002, 06:29 AM

I think the fact that Grishnakh is a high ranking Orc Captain of Mordor would make the liklihood of him knowing Gollums noise and background all the more plausible. Grishnakh is evidently second-in-command to the Nazgul in Saurons Ring-Quest at this point, he claims:
"A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank"
Evidently then Grishnakh is more knowledgable about the affairs/strategy of Sauron and the Wraiths than most Orckind (particuarly Sarumans), and he confirms his service-in-thrall with this statement to Ugluk:
"Nazgul, Nazgul" said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips as if the word had a foul taste that he savoured painfully. "You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk"
For an Orc at any rate, Grishnakh is entrusted with considerable dark knowledge, and as such he has got to be at least partially aware of 'the precious' and some of its history.

Marsyas · 12-27-2002, 10:28 AM

I think it's possible that Pippin made the nioses to distract Grishnakh from searching. Pippin did say that the ring was hard to find right?
It's possible he said this to give him time to think of a way to get away from Grishnakh, and it worked out didn't it?

*~Marsyas~*

littlemanpoet · 12-30-2002, 08:06 PM

This is very subtle on Pippin's part. He has overheard Grishnakh speaking to Ugluk, so Pippin has a sense that G must know more than he's letting on. Now, Pippin was not at the Council of Elrond when Gandalf explained that Gollum had been captive in Mordor; yet Pippin knew about Gollum. I don't recall any place in the story where Pippin is given this knowledge by Frodo or Gandalf or anybody else. Therefore, it seems to me that Pippin is playing a very dangerous game, and why not? It's life or death anyway. I imagine he figures that if Grishnakh knows as much as he lets on, there's a chance he knows about the Ring and about Gollum. Here's the key for me: by doing the "gollum" in his throat, Pippin lets Grishnakh know that Pippin knows more than Pippin has been letting on, so he's playing the "I'm more valuable than you think," card. Not only that, but Pippin realizes that Grishnkah thinks Pippin might have the Ring. Trouble is, Grishnakh doesn't WANT to need Pippin. Besides, if Pippin has the Ring, Grishnakh want the Precious for himself. I've always found Grishnakh fascinating, the most truly evil orc Tolkien ever evoked. The sheer malevolence in the creature is just powerful!

Kalimac · 12-31-2002, 02:40 AM

littlemanpoet - when you say "Pippin knew about Gollum" do you mean knew of his existence in general, or knew that he had been previously captured? For the first, I imagine Bilbo would have told that Riddles In The Dark story (suitably edited, of course, rather like he did in his first telling of the story) to all of the younger hobbits several times, and of course Pippin would have been only eleven or so when Bilbo went away. For the second, don't forget that Sam was passing along information to Merry and Pippin for several months, and he did overhear that conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in "Shadow of the Past" which included a fairly complete description of Gollum's past and present activities. True, Merry says that Sam didn't pass on anything more after he was caught, but that could have just meant he didn't pass on any further conversations between Frodo and anyone else - obviously he let M&P know enough to realize that Frodo was in serious danger, why not tell them all the gossip about Gollum as well?

doug*platypus · 12-31-2002, 03:26 AM

Excellent point, Kalimac. But of course you are a hobbit, and have some insights into the fiendish nature of these unruly gossips. Tolkien doesn't tell us every single thing that the Company talked about on the long road south to Caradhras, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Tolkien's world is ultra-realistic to the last detail. This is shown in the conversation between Pippin and Merry on the grassy knoll after the Palantir has been recovered.

Quote:

Remember that saying of Gildor's? The one Sam always used to quote? 'Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger!'

Sam at least seemingly did a lot of talking to the other hobbits.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-31-2002, 03:48 AM

I think Pippin was just trying to confuse the orc.

Quote:

so he's playing the "I'm more valuable than you think," card. Not only that, but Pippin realizes that Grishnkah thinks Pippin might have the Ring.

Very good littlemanpoet (where's the rhymes?) it's very interesting. I think that Pippin was doing that to save his own neck, rather than have Grishnak kill him and then search. To me, in simpler terms Pippin was saying, "it's hard to find, you can't do it on your own, but I can help, I know more than you think and more than you know..." So, as poet said, he is sort of saying I'm more valuable than you think. And to me, he's saying you can't kill me.

littlemanpoet · 01-01-2003, 12:05 PM

Yup, MLD,
that's to a tee
what I was trying to say.
As to rhyming away,
sometimes it's hard
to find the right word
in thought as complex
as found in that text
I wrote up above.
Though I love
to rhyme, but enough
about me and my stuff.

akhtene · 01-01-2003, 05:02 PM

Having read this thread I decided to re-read the chapter in Two Towers, and that's what I thought.
Under given circumstances, Pippin hardly had any time or knowledge, to sort out who was who in Mordor hierarchy, what their captor was supposed to know or what could interest him. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

IMO by imitating Gollum the first time Pippin was sending a message to Merry, that

Quote:

" Grishnakh knows about the Ring!... he probably wants it for himself"

Right after that, Merry

Quote:

now alert and aware of Pippin's guess

joins the talk and together the hobbits start playing for time.
PS. Nice verse, littlemanpoet [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: akhtene ]

doug*platypus · 01-02-2003, 03:31 AM

I'd have to say I share your opinion of Merry as more intelligent than Pippin, but do you think that's really fair in this case? To credit Pippin with just enough wits to bring Merry into the game, rather than simply being the smart one himself? Merry congratulates him afterwards, I think Pip deserves a bit more recognition!

akhtene · 01-02-2003, 04:58 PM

By no means I want to diminish Pippin's credit. It's only... Well, I can hardly believe that in the seconds he had, frightened and disgusted, he could bring together Ring - Gollum - his imprisonment in Mordor - Grishnakh knowing about it...
It's great enough that Pippin guessed Grishnakh's intentions and passed the knowledge fast and safely to Merry. Two heads are better than one.

It's the second time when Pippin imitated Gollum, I think, he was trying to put some idea in the Ork's head. But this time he was sure it was Grishnakh's weak spot from his previous reaction. And together with Merry's mention of Saruman, it set the Ork off.

12-26-2002, 07:24 AM	#1
zagwakh the sneaky Guest Posts: n/a	Merry and Pippen's escape from Grishnakh I am half way through reading LOTR for the second time. For the second time now I have become stumped at the same place. Merry and Pippen are taken by Grishnakh while Ugluk was busy during the raid by the Riders of Rohan, because he knows about the ring and wants is for himself. When he is far enough away he starts fingering the hobbits in search of the ring. Pippen guesses that this is what he is doing and tries to work the situation to his advantage. "'I don't think you will find it that way' he whispered. It isn't easy to find' 'Find it?' asked Grishnakh: his fingers stopped crawling and gripped Pippen's shoulder. 'Find what. What are you talking about little one?' For a moment Pippen was silent then in the darkness he made a noise in his throat:gollum,gollum. 'Nothing, my precious,' he added. The hobbits felt Grishnakh's fingers twitch. 'O ho! Very, Ve-ry dangerous, my little ones.'" The first time I read that (it seems stupid now, but I thought maybe Gollum was watching and was going to kill Grishnakh to save "his precious" and the hobbits at the same time.) Anyway, the thing that stumps me was the mention of Gollum (or atleast Pippen making the gollum sound in his throat). Did Pippen really think that Gollum was there? Did he guess that Grishnakh was around when Gollum was tortured to find out where the ring was? These are the two best reasons I can think of for this. Does anyone else have agree or have any other ideas?

12-26-2002, 08:05 AM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Grishnakh was a high-ranking Uruk in the forces of Mordor (otherwise he wouldn't be leading that expedition of Uruks), so he probably had received orders to look out for Gollum (either for the expedition, or years before when they were Sauron was hunting Gollum). Pippin was just smart enough to make the connection between the orc of Mordor and the hunt for the Ring. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-26-2002, 08:18 AM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I thought it was Gollum the first time I read it! Then I looked back and realised that Grishnakh would be about what? 3-4 times bigger than Gollum? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-26-2002, 07:42 PM	#6
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	You're right, it does sound weird when Pippin starts acting all Gollumy. I think it's so that there's no doubt that he's talking about the Ring, without mentioning it specifically. He's trying to be sneaky, playing games with Grishnakh, and doesn't want to just come straight out with it. Maybe it's possible that Grishnakh was one of Gollum's torturers, or that he had a spy or a mate who was. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-26-2002, 09:34 PM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	He is simply trying to reinforce the orcs ideas about the ring [ and to imply he [ pip] has it without mentioning it. Pippin realizes [or hopes] the [mordor] Orcs have guessed this and that they have seemingly connected the ring to Gollum. [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

12-26-2002, 08:15 AM	#3
zagwakh the sneaky Guest Posts: n/a	That certainly makes sense! I guess that was the first time that Pippen really showed his smarts! (Well, guess the first time was when he dropped his elven broach on the plains.)

12-27-2002, 06:29 AM	#8
Luinadar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vinyamar, Nevrast Posts: 23	I think the fact that Grishnakh is a high ranking Orc Captain of Mordor would make the liklihood of him knowing Gollums noise and background all the more plausible. Grishnakh is evidently second-in-command to the Nazgul in Saurons Ring-Quest at this point, he claims: "A winged Nazgul awaits us northward on the east-bank" Evidently then Grishnakh is more knowledgable about the affairs/strategy of Sauron and the Wraiths than most Orckind (particuarly Sarumans), and he confirms his service-in-thrall with this statement to Ugluk: "Nazgul, Nazgul" said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips as if the word had a foul taste that he savoured painfully. "You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk" For an Orc at any rate, Grishnakh is entrusted with considerable dark knowledge, and as such he has got to be at least partially aware of 'the precious' and some of its history. __________________ He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust...

12-27-2002, 10:28 AM	#9
Marsyas Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rohandemar Posts: 38	I think it's possible that Pippin made the nioses to distract Grishnakh from searching. Pippin did say that the ring was hard to find right? It's possible he said this to give him time to think of a way to get away from Grishnakh, and it worked out didn't it? ~Marsyas~ __________________ ~Marsyas~ ~Niere~ Some find strength in numbers, I find strength in solitude.

12-30-2002, 08:06 PM	#10
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	This is very subtle on Pippin's part. He has overheard Grishnakh speaking to Ugluk, so Pippin has a sense that G must know more than he's letting on. Now, Pippin was not at the Council of Elrond when Gandalf explained that Gollum had been captive in Mordor; yet Pippin knew about Gollum. I don't recall any place in the story where Pippin is given this knowledge by Frodo or Gandalf or anybody else. Therefore, it seems to me that Pippin is playing a very dangerous game, and why not? It's life or death anyway. I imagine he figures that if Grishnakh knows as much as he lets on, there's a chance he knows about the Ring and about Gollum. Here's the key for me: by doing the "gollum" in his throat, Pippin lets Grishnakh know that Pippin knows more than Pippin has been letting on, so he's playing the "I'm more valuable than you think," card. Not only that, but Pippin realizes that Grishnkah thinks Pippin might have the Ring. Trouble is, Grishnakh doesn't WANT to need Pippin. Besides, if Pippin has the Ring, Grishnakh want the Precious for himself. I've always found Grishnakh fascinating, the most truly evil orc Tolkien ever evoked. The sheer malevolence in the creature is just powerful!

12-31-2002, 02:40 AM	#11
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	littlemanpoet - when you say "Pippin knew about Gollum" do you mean knew of his existence in general, or knew that he had been previously captured? For the first, I imagine Bilbo would have told that Riddles In The Dark story (suitably edited, of course, rather like he did in his first telling of the story) to all of the younger hobbits several times, and of course Pippin would have been only eleven or so when Bilbo went away. For the second, don't forget that Sam was passing along information to Merry and Pippin for several months, and he did overhear that conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in "Shadow of the Past" which included a fairly complete description of Gollum's past and present activities. True, Merry says that Sam didn't pass on anything more after he was caught, but that could have just meant he didn't pass on any further conversations between Frodo and anyone else - obviously he let M&P know enough to realize that Frodo was in serious danger, why not tell them all the gossip about Gollum as well? __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

01-01-2003, 12:05 PM	#14
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Yup, MLD, that's to a tee what I was trying to say. As to rhyming away, sometimes it's hard to find the right word in thought as complex as found in that text I wrote up above. Though I love to rhyme, but enough about me and my stuff.

01-02-2003, 03:31 AM	#16
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I'd have to say I share your opinion of Merry as more intelligent than Pippin, but do you think that's really fair in this case? To credit Pippin with just enough wits to bring Merry into the game, rather than simply being the smart one himself? Merry congratulates him afterwards, I think Pip deserves a bit more recognition! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-02-2003, 04:58 PM	#17
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	By no means I want to diminish Pippin's credit. It's only... Well, I can hardly believe that in the seconds he had, frightened and disgusted, he could bring together Ring - Gollum - his imprisonment in Mordor - Grishnakh knowing about it... It's great enough that Pippin guessed Grishnakh's intentions and passed the knowledge fast and safely to Merry. Two heads are better than one. It's the second time when Pippin imitated Gollum, I think, he was trying to put some idea in the Ork's head. But this time he was sure it was Grishnakh's weak spot from his previous reaction. And together with Merry's mention of Saruman, it set the Ork off. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

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