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02-22-2003, 12:55 PM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: that place with the stuff
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I think i found another hidden meaning...
I was just thinking about this the other day, does it sound like the one ring was sort of like a drug? I mean if you have it, your happy but also your not, and when it is taken away from you(ex/ Gollum)you go crazy for it and need it back at any cost. Any thoughts?
P.S. I dont know if this has been brought up yet, i did a really quick search cause i have to work in 15 mins! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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02-22-2003, 01:25 PM | #2 |
Animated Skeleton
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Location: wandering about...
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Andy Serkis did say he was trying to portray Gollum like a heroin addict. The Ring does seem to act this way a lot. Didn't it say that Frodo still felt somewhat restless even after it was destroyed? (I might be making that up)
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02-22-2003, 01:32 PM | #3 |
Wight
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I've always thought that the One Ring was like a drug myself. Also, another interesting thing to think about is the role of pipe-weed in the books. Gandalf seems to have thought highly of it, but Saruman had an air of bitterness towards it and alcohol(even though he was hoarding it at Isengard).
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02-23-2003, 02:48 AM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yeah, I always thought of it like a drug. There are some threads that discussed this, but maybe when you did your search you only checked Novices and newcomers, and not the book section. Here's the thread, Do you wish gollum had lived?. And here's what I basically said
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02-23-2003, 02:55 AM | #5 |
Beholder of the Mists
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Interesting topic, maybe in a way Tolkien was putting in a message (he had a lot of messages in the books). Because isn't the ring supposed to kind of represent technology and industry, and you know how we can kind of get addicted to technology and things like that. So maybe Tolkien was kind of saying that kind of stuff is bad for you, and if you get addicted to it than it can cause you major problems. I know other people could probably do a much better response to this than me, and I probably made a lot of mistakes, but this was just the first thing that popped into my head.
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02-23-2003, 03:07 AM | #6 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Begging your pardon Mr Frodo, but's it's me sir, your Sam. Old Gaffer used to tell me, that once you let trouble in, trouble don't let you out. If you take my meaning, sir.
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Sam knows what's best Mr. Frodo, I'm not so dull minded as not to see what I see, if you take my meaning, sir. Tar [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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02-23-2003, 03:16 AM | #7 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Quote:
Ooh... pleasant thoughts of Goldeneye just flashed before my mind's eye. *goes into a trance*
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02-23-2003, 04:26 AM | #8 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Regarding technoogy....
I think it was not technology by itself that was evil and addictive, but rather how it was used. Tolkien seems to say that the bad thing about technology was that it often epitomized our desire to control or master things, rather than simply to appreciate them by studying or learning about them. You can have technology that is "not bad"--just look at the Shire--Tolkien mentions in passing things like fireworks and clocks, and these aren't portrayed as "bad". Look at the Noldor Elves....their desire to create things verges very close to what we view as technology, and that creation could be good or bad, depending on how it's employed. For this same reason, JRRT makes a distinction between magic and enchantment. Enchantment is the good stuff the Elves do which flows naturally from their soul; magic is the bad stuff that someone like Saruman tries to wield when he attempts to manipulate everything and everyone about him. I think what Tolkien was really saying about addiction was this. It's when man tries to set himself up in God's place, to change the innate natural order of things that he gets into real trouble. Man is supposed to learn and appreciate within that natural order and not attempt to distort it. So whether it's bad magic or bad technology, it can be addictive and hurtful to our souls. [ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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02-23-2003, 09:23 AM | #9 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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There is a very interesting and active discussion related to this topic on the Books forum. For those who are interested, please read THE RING and corruption .
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02-23-2003, 09:35 AM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks for the distinction between magic and enchantment, Child, though there's another thing that's so beautiful enchantment that I'd like to point out (it's something I got from the dvd). From what I remember, the word itself comes from "chant." "Enchanting" or "enchantment" therefore is a result of a chant: a spoken word whose meaning becomes actual out of its repitition. So having enchanment come innately from elves in the way they use their creativity makes sense. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Kinda like "The word became flesh."
About technology, I think it's a sad thing that people have become so dependent on their cell phones, and even on their cars. When my pastor's wife found out that I walk to my dentist's instead of taking the jeep (I'm from Manila, and jeepnyes are everywhere), her eyes and mouth were agape. And I was like "It's just a 5-minute walk, and a tricycle away--nothing much" (A tricycle's another part of our commuting culture--riding it gives me no choice, though). And I've got this friend who, a few days ago, attempted to send her twin sis on the ground floor an SMS just to come up to her on the 2nd floor! *gasp*
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02-23-2003, 09:39 AM | #11 |
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It seems many people who have had an addiction really relate to this story. The ring is a drug nearly impossible to break. I have always likened the ring to a very negative habit or "sin" if you will, that has a hard hold on your being.
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02-24-2003, 09:09 PM | #12 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I always thought of the ring as a bad habit too (maybe a little worse than that). Something like temptation; when your resisting its bad, but its worse when you look at yourself after you've given in. It did seem as if Tolkien didn't like all the technology in our world, the way he described Sauruman and how he murdered the forest comes to mind. I myself appreciate technology. I think that it is how addicted you are to it and what that technology does that decides whether it is good or bad. For instance the medical leaps and bounds we've taken. But sadly its moot whether we appreciate technology, because although we ourselves can live simpler lives, the world can't go back. Which is why I retreat to ME.
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02-24-2003, 10:16 PM | #14 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well Samwise, the thing with Gollum searching was that he tried to let the ring go, even though he couldn't. He couldn't because as you said, he went to great lengths looking for his precious. And he got more desperate the closer they got to Mt. Doom. However, the reason I say that he was trying to quit was because he had a chance to take it, but chose not to. Many times he could have done away with Sam and Frodo and taken the ring. Like at Ithilien. Gollum is very cunning and crafty. He could have strangled Sam first, or came up with another way of ending his life, while Frodo was separated from him. And then Gollum could have killed Frodo and taken the ring. Do you recall the steps at Cirith Ungol? When it said
Quote:
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05-19-2003, 12:09 PM | #15 |
Shadowed Prince
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Quite coincidentally - in PSE (personal social education) we were learning about drugs. being the LOTRaholic i am, i drew a picture of some of the LOTR characters. And gollum was there saying "heroin, my preciousss... we wantsss it." to his ring
And id never even thought of the ring as a drug before! |
05-19-2003, 01:09 PM | #16 |
Denethor's True Love
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Good question. I suppose the ring could be viewed as a drug. The thought has even crossed my mind before. So Gollum is the crazed junkie, Boromir takes a fatal overdose, and Aragorn is the sensible one who prefers to study rather than do that stuff behind the bike sheds.
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05-19-2003, 03:28 PM | #17 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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I think you have all made legitimate points regarding how the desire for the Ring resembles the kind of pull a drug addict feels. In the context of our own society, we're constantly exposed to the problem of drug addiction whether through the media, lessons students are taught in school, or even the examples that some of us have seen among family and friends. Because of this, it's easy for us to understand the addicting power of the Ring if we think about it in terms of drug addiction.
This is also the model that PJ used in the movie, in the way that he portrayed both Gollum and Frodo. Gollum was a full blow "addict", with Frodo gradually falling under the influence. I even remember reading an early interview where PJ stated that this was the conscious model he planned to use. Just looking at Frodo when he thinks about the Ring, how his face sweats and his face distorts, certainly confirms this. Yet, I'm not wholly comfortable with this image. Drugs have been around a long time, but I don't think this is mainly what JRRT had in mind when he thought about the Ring. Growing up in the Edwardian era, and spendng years studying and teaching philology, he had a frame of reference that was different than ours. I think he thought more in terms of paradigms from ancient Norse myth, the Bible, and other things that were close to his heart and experience. Things like Man's desire to dominate and to escape death were central to his mind. To put it in old fashioned terms, I think he felt Men were irrisistably flawed and drawn to evil, and could overcome that only with enormous effort (and they would never completely succeed!). Drug addiction is one example of that, but it's not the whole picture. The wider picture is our fallen nature which made us prone to whatever addicting evil comes along--whether the desire to dominate through magic or technology that JRRT depicts in LotR, or the modern instance of drug addiction. It is Man's general nature rather than a specfic evil that accounts for the lure of the Ring.
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05-19-2003, 04:12 PM | #18 |
Blithe Spirit
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I agree. The power of the ring is more subtle than just addiction to a chemical substance.
And I also think that the film suffered from the analogy assumed by its makers, particularly by making Frodo act like a junkie. It got very one-dimensional and tedious.
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