Silmarillion - Akallabêth

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Rereading this chapter was an overwhelming experience for me! It's long, yet there is so much history packed into those pages, that it seems too brief to do the tale justice. Wouldn't it have been interesting to read a whole book about Númenor?!

The beginning recaps some of the past history of Arda, setting the scene for what is to come. We discover that the defeat of Morgoth did not put an end to the evil in the world, though it took time for the seeds to grow. In continuation of the events of the Silmarillion, we learn of the fates of Elros and Elrond. The history of the Dúnedain is given here as well.

There is a good deal about the different fates of the Children - the (virtually) endless life of the Eldar and the Gift of death for Men. We find out that death is only seen negatively due to the misinterpretation given to it by the forces of evil.

It seems to me that two characteristics cause the downfall of Númenor: dissatisfaction and pride. The latter has often been seen to bring Elves to fall in the Silmarillion. Now we see how envy and the desire for something that is not intended for those wanting it can wreak havoc. There is also a third element involved in this tragedy - the lust for power. The Númenóreans, who first came to Middle-earth as benevolent givers of wisdom and aid, become ruthless takers.

The story of the Faithful then leads up to the later events in the LotR, with Aragorn's history, Sauron's background, and a brief mention of the Rings of Power. We also find information about the White Tree.

The mythological story that is told here ends with the changing of the world - in my opinion, one of the most interesting aspects of Tolkien's Legendarium. The transformation of a flat to a round earth is a fascinating concept! I'm glad that Tolkien's later changes did not come into this chapter.

How does this part of the mythology affect you? Which of the many characters that show up fascinate you most? Which stories would you have liked to hear more of? I look forward to reading your thoughts!

[Aiwendil]

The story of Numenor (and indeed, the whole history of Middle-earth as we know it after the defeat of Morgoth) was a somewhat late addition to the Legendarium, at least compared with the material in the Silmarillion proper. While the previous tales had first been formulated starting in 1917, it was not until about 1936 that Tolkien and C.S. Lewis decided that one of them would write a story about space travel and the other about time travel, leading in Lewis's case to Out of the Silent Planet and in Tolkien's case to the unfinished novel The Lost Road. The Lost Road was to be about a father and son from modern day England who through their dreams travel back in time to successively earlier episodes in history and mythology, eventually ending up in Numenor at the time of its downfall. Only a few chapters of this were written, but at about the same time Tolkien wrote a short 'straight' account of the story of Numenor (i.e. without the time travel framing device) called 'The Fall of Numenor'. Not long thereafter, he began writing The Lord of the Rings, drawing considerably on the new legend for its backstory.

In 1944, having written about 2/3 of LotR, Tolkien turned away from it for a time and began writing another story in which people from the (then) present day - in this case a fictionalized version of the Inklings - travel to Numenor (by way of Anglo-Saxon England). This was The Notion Club Papers, presented in the form of the minutes of the eponymous society. Like The Lost Road, it was never finished; also like The Lost Road, it was accompanied by a shorter straight telling of the legend, in this case called 'The Drowning of Anadune'. This text is interesting in that it appears to have been meant as a 'Mannish' story (as opposed to the Silmarillion, which was at that time meant to have been written by Elves), and it contains corruptions and misunderstandings of the 'true' story (for instance, it conflates the Elves with the Ainur).

In working on the appendices to LotR (in the early 1950s), Tolkien extended and revised the story of Numenor further, and at around the same time he wrote the 'Akallabeth', which was largely formed by combining material from 'The Fall of Numenor' and 'The Drowning of Anadune'.

Additional readings
HoMe V - 'The Fall of Numenor' and the incomplete The Lost Road.
HoMe IX - 'The Drowning of Anadune' and the incomplete The Notion Club Papers.
HoMe XII - Christopher Tolkien's discussion of the history of the 'Akallabeth'
UT - Contains some later (1960s) writings concerning Numenor: 'The Line of Elros', 'A Description of the Island of Numenor', and the incomplete but intriguing story 'Aldarion and Erendis'.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

(Introduction is now edited into the first post.)

[Inziladun]

This is probably my favourite chapter of The Silmarillion.

I do see parallels between the Fall of Númenor and the "fall" of the Noldor in the First Age.

In both cases, Children of Ilúvatar were guided by the Valar to a land that was ostensibly free from external evil.

In both cases, external evil, in the form of "divine" spirits worked to move the Children against the Valar, with the aid of tools readily available in the hearts and minds of the targets.

And in both cases, some of the "fallen" were saved by faith, though at cost of losing pretty much everything they had.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

There is a good deal about the different fates of the Children - the (virtually) endless life of the Eldar and the Gift of death for Men. We find out that death is only seen negatively due to the misinterpretation given to it by the forces of evil.

I really like the words of the emissaries sent by the Valar to Tar-Atanamir. which gives insight into the way the Eldar saw their own fate within Arda.

'[The Eldar] cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs.'

And of mortality, they said:

'Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?'

I wonder how many of the Númenóreans were convinced by that speech of the folly of pursuing immortality? Surely some, because that was an excellent way of putting things into perspective.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

It seems to me that two characteristics cause the downfall of Númenor: dissatisfaction and pride. The latter has often been seen to bring Elves to fall in the Silmarillion. Now we see how envy and the desire for something that is not intended for those wanting it can wreak havoc. There is also a third element involved in this tragedy - the lust for power. The Númenóreans, who first came to Middle-earth as benevolent givers of wisdom and aid, become ruthless takers.

The desire of power beyond one's native abilities, and the ill effects thereof, is a constant motif in the books.

Ultimately, that was the impetus of the forging of the Rings of Power, and the reason they were accepted by the Free Peoples and used.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

How does this part of the mythology affect you? Which of the many characters that show up fascinate you most? Which stories would you have liked to hear more of? I look forward to reading your thoughts!

As may be apparent, my favourite character in the chapter is Tar-Palantir. He tried against the odds, and too late, to set things right, and to be an example for the people to follow away from evil. At least he didn't live to see what happened to his daughter.

I'd like to have read more of the ways in which Sauron wormed his way into the hearts of the majority of the people, and the King. The Númenóreans were, among Men, the most learnéd of all regarding lore of Arda and its creation. That Sauron could talk them into attacking Valinor itself shows just how smooth and strong-willed he really was.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

The mythological story that is told here ends with the changing of the world - in my opinion, one of the most interesting aspects of Tolkien's Legendarium. The transformation of a flat to a round earth is a fascinating concept! I'm glad that Tolkien's later changes did not come into this chapter

I too am interested in this topic, but I think Tolkien's later conceptions did impact this matter. In my opinion Tolkien 'ratified' an earlier work, and if so, he might have taken the route of a multi-tradition legendarium here -- at least possibly, given that sometime in the 1960s Tolkien wrote upon an envelope that contained the Drowning of Anadûnê:

Contains very old version (in Adunaic) which is good -- in so far as it is just as much different (in inclusion and omission and emphasis) as would be probable in the supposed case:
(a) Mannish tradition
(b) Elvish tradition
(c) Mixed Dúnedanic tradition

JRRT

And Akallabêth would appear to be the mixed tradition. In the Scull and Hammond Reader's Guide, for instance, the description concerning the Akallabêth includes:

'(...) Also, apparently influenced by the preference his friend Katherine Farrer expressed in the autumn of 1948 for the 'Flat World' version of the Ainulindale over the 'Round World' version, Tolkien, for a time at least, seems to have decided to retain the cosmology of the world being originally flat as it was in The Fall of Númenor. In addition, some new material needed to be added to the story of Númenor to take account of various matter introduced in The Lord of the Rings.

Christopher Tolkien thinks that a note his father wrote many years later explains how he regarded the different accounts: The Fall of Númenor relates 'Elvish tradition', The Drowning of Anadûnê 'Mannish tradition', and the Akallabêth, which draws on both of the others, 'Mixed Dúnedanic tradition' (Sauron Defeated, pp. 406-7)'. Reader's Guide p. 674

And considering we jump to sometime in the 1960s, when JRRT -- if seemingly not continuing on with 'Myths Transformed' (considered as a loose set of texts) -- yet does characterize the Silmarillion as a largely Mannish affair. Why not largely Elvish?


One important reason in my opinion is to preserve, at least with respect to the tale itself that is, certain old ideas that had been raising questions in Tolkien's mind -- old ideas that were, however, now to be reimagined as mannish compared to the arguably more well informed Elves of the West, or certain of the Wise. And if we consider Akallabêth a mixed tradition, from what (general) source might the implication of a once flat world hail from (I think the matter is stated more vaguely in Akallabêth as compared to the old Fall of Numenor account)?

Why not mannish? again, with the Elves of the West and arguably some of the Wise knowing better however. What do you (anyone) think?

[Galin]

Hmm, as the tumbleweeds tumble by I would like to speak to this section a bit more...

Christopher Tolkien thinks that a note his father wrote many years later explains how he regarded the different accounts: The Fall of Númenor relates 'Elvish tradition', The Drowning of Anadûnê 'Mannish tradition', and the Akallabêth, which draws on both of the others, 'Mixed Dúnedanic tradition' (Sauron Defeated, pp. 406-7)'. Reader's Guide p. 674

This is certainly true, but for my purposes I would add that there are other considerations here: in the note I quoted above, Tolkien merely noted that there are three traditions -- in other words, he himself did not specifically comment on any version of The Fall of Numenor. And while a text called The Fall of Numenor might correctly correspond to Elvish tradition, we don't necessarily have the version as written.

Back when The Fall of Numenor was written it was specifically flat world and Elvish, but in the later DA it was the Elves of the West who taught the Numenoreans that the World was round (thus always round). So my proposition includes that while an Elvish tradition could be called The Fall of Numenor, or by default this is the title left to represent an Elvish version, it had not yet been rewritten as an Elvish round-world tradition, and thus was not suitable -- as it stood -- to truly represent what the Elves of the West knew (and taught in DA).

However DA was suitable as it stood, even if an 'oldish' text by the 1960s, and so it goes into the envelope at this time with a 'which is good' and so on written on it -- because it needed no great revsion to easily sink into place with Tolkien's later ideas.

[Aiwendil]

Certainly it's true that the actual text given in HoMe V called 'The Fall of Numenor' cannot be the (intra-Legendarium) 'real' text representing the Elvish tradition - if for no other reason than that many names and plot elements had changed since it was written in the 1930s.

But I think it's very reasonable to assume that Tolkien did have this text in mind when he mentioned the Elvish tradition; or rather, that he had a hypothetical, 'up to date' version of it in mind. What's compelling about this is that it makes the supposed intra-Legendarium textual history match quite closely with the real textual history, for the 'Akallabeth' was indeed (at least on the most mundane, prosaic level) a mixed tradition, created by combining the two other texts.

Now, whether the hypothetical, up to date, Elvish 'Fall of Numenor' would be one with a round world cosmology is an interesting but, I think, ultimately insoluble, question. But I think you suggest an interesting possibility: an Elvish tradition with a round world, a Mannish tradition with a flat world, and a 'mixed' tradition in which the world begins flat and is made round. The possibility that what is 'mixed' about the 'mixed tradition' is that the Change of the World is a compromise between an always-round earth and an always-flat earth is one that hadn't occurred to me before.

[Galin]

Thanks for the response Aiwendil, and you put things well (arguably better than I did above) as to what I'm trying to suggest.


If memory serves, Christopher Tolkien notes some of the intended confusions woven into the mannish account, but does not include 'what the Elves taught' concerning the shape of the World as one of them. One might argue that his references were never intended as a complete list in any case, but still, it would seem very odd to me if Men also got this wrong.

Again there are plenty of later references that the Silmarillion is now to be imagined as a largely Mannish affair -- thus it had incorporated Mannish ideas; and to my mind, the very basic notion is that the Elves from Aman should better know the 'truth' about the World than Men, even some of the West-men. Still, this seems to me a way to preserve the early ideas Tolkien wondered about in Myths Transformed (seen as a collective set of musings) -- a way to keep them alive, or part of the written legendarium, without need of major revision.


What is 'more true' within the mixed account, or Akallabeth? Hard to say, but we can at least compare AK (mixed) to DA (mannish), and within DA I think we have the seed of a theoretically updated FN account (Elvish) with respect to the shape of the World -- unless for some reason what the Elves of the West taught in DA runs quite contrary to the Elvish account...

... or some other reason others might think of! which is why I'm tossing this out for consideration

[Aiwendil]

unless for some reason what the Elves of the West taught in DA runs quite contrary to the Elvish account...

What you say is in itself certainly correct. But perhaps it's worth noting that the Elvish view we get in DA (i.e. that the world was always round) is not precisely what the Elves of the West taught - rather, it's the Mannish tradition as to what the Elves of the West taught. It is quite conceivable that the author of DA was confused or incorrect about what the Elvish belief was.

This raises the somewhat interesting question of just who (i.e. a person of what time and place) the author of DA is supposed to have been. Indeed, when one considers the issue of authorship, I think that something of a problem may arise. To wit, if the Akallabeth was written by Elendil (I believe this is said in UT, is it not?), an eye-witness to the later events of the story writing not long after they occurred, then it is difficult to imagine how or why the Akallabeth was created by combining those two previous accounts. DA is implied to have been written by non-Dunedainic Men, who are of course much farther removed from the story than Elendil (or indeed from any supposed Dunedainic author). It is patently absurd to imagine Elendil discovering that some hill-men of Middle-earth had their own garbled account of the fall of Numenor, studiously transcribing their version, setting it beside an account written by some loremaster of Rivendell or Lindon, and then dutifully redacting the two texts like an earnest Mediaeval monk.

Of course, it may be that the idea of Elendil as the author of the Akallabeth was not present when the note about the mixed tradition was written. However, a lesser form of the same problem persists even he is not the author. Why should any Dunedainic writer give such credence to DA?

The other possibility - which I find most likely - is that the reference to a 'mixed tradition' does not imply that the Akallabeth was actually intended to have compiled from an Elvish text and a Mannish text. Rather, this text, written by Elendil not long after the downfall, was not compiled from other sources but was written out by him ab initio - but that it naturally drew both on Elvish lore acquired by the Numenoreans and on Mannish lore brought into Numenor by the Edain; and DA was an account written elsewhere, by other Men in other circumstances, but drawing ultimately on the same old Mannish lore. The problem with this is that if the text of DA that we have is considered the 'real' text, then it clearly does have a shared textual history with the Akallabeth, since there are such strong similarities of wording.

The more I think about this, the more confusing it becomes.

[Galin]

I'll probably add something on the question of whether or not the author of DA misrepresented the teaching of the Elves, but for now I'll just add that Christopher Tolkien seems to think the idea was (vaguely enough) men of a later time -- but I note the second quote too:

'Where could such ignorance of the Elves be found but in the minds of men of a later time? This I believe, is what my father was concerned to portray: a tradition of Men, through long ages become dim and confused.'

'(...) I conclude therefore that the marked differences in the preliminary sketches reflect my father's shifting ideas of what the 'Mannish tradition' might be, and how to present it: he was sketching rapidly possible modes in which the memory, and the forgetfulness, of Men in Middle-earth, descendants of the Exiles of Numenor, might have transformed their earlier history.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Drowning of Anadune, Sauron Defeated

'Descendants of the Exiles of Numenor' is interesting here.

Aiwendil wrote: The other possibility - which I find most likely - is that the reference to a 'mixed tradition' does not imply that the Akallabeth was actually intended to have compiled from an Elvish text and a Mannish text. Rather, this text, written by Elendil not long after the downfall, was not compiled from other sources but was written out by him ab initio - but that it naturally drew both on Elvish lore acquired by the Numenoreans and on Mannish lore brought into Numenor by the Edain; and DA was an account written elsewhere, by other Men in other circumstances, but drawing ultimately on the same old Mannish lore. The problem with this is that if the text of DA that we have is considered the 'real' text, then it clearly does have a shared textual history with the Akallabeth, since there are such strong similarities of wording.

Maybe Elendil wrote AK, drawing upon two traditions in general as you say -- and much later, oral versions based on Elendil's tale became simplified and confused, but retained similarities of wording to Elendil's account; and one of these versions is written down as DA.

Maybe?

[Galin]

Aiwendil wrote: 'What you say is in itself certainly correct. But perhaps it's worth noting that the Elvish view we get in DA (i.e. that the world was always round) is not precisely what the Elves of the West taught - rather, it's the Mannish tradition as to what the Elves of the West taught. It is quite conceivable that the author of DA was confused or incorrect about what the Elvish belief was.

While this is possible, I don't think it well fits the 'other' purpose of The Drowning of Anadune. Hammond and Scull note:

'There is no reason to doubt that when Tolkien wrote these words ['And here endeth the tale of the ancient world as it is known to the Elves.' Fall of Numenor] he intended that the Elves' knowledge of the world and its history, deriving from the Valar and their own experiences, should reflect what actually occurred. Nothing is said about if, and how, this Elvish tradition was passed on to Men.'

'The Drowning of Anadune is intended to show how events in the First Age and the history of Numenor might have been remembered in the traditions of Men after being passed down through many generations: filtered, changed, distorted, and with much forgotten. But this was also a time when Tolkien began to doubt whether he should include in his mythology elements contrary to scientific knowledge, such as a flat world made round, and considered whether to make fundamental changes, or alternatively, changes in perception and knowledge, even writing a version of the Ainulindale in which the world was round from Creation. In the Fall of Numenor a flat world is made round at the time of the Downfall, but in the Drowning of Anadune the world was always round.'

Reader's Guide, Numenor

So I think DA has a twofold purpose, generally speaking, not simply to represent the confusion of Men, but to make Round World mythology the actuality. I note that Ainulindale Round World is still within the Elfwine conception: ['And they went thither, Manwe and Ulmo and Aule, and others of whom though shalt hear, Elfwine, and behold!] -- in other words, it's still Eressean (Elvish) knowledge given directly to Elfwine, and the world is round and always was. It's not a confused Mannish version.

Yet DA is of course! but if the overarching idea is to change the Elvish myths from being 'flat world' (which Tolkien noted was a pity to Katherine Farrer in about 1948) to Round World, the Elves of Aman should be correct about the world being always round, just as the Eressean teaching to Elfwine about the Music and so on.


And what if the reader should think that the author of DA is incorrect on this point? Would this not raise the question of what the Elves 'actually' taught, beneath the confusion? It can hardly be that they really taught that the World was flat -- and in that case, the Men who disbelieved the (mis-reported) teaching would essentially be correct! I find that a bit too convoluted: that early Men (or certain Men) did not believe that the World was round, but the author of DA (a later Man) ultimately knows that the Elves were correct -- all within the idea that the World being round was actually incorrectly reported to begin with!?


Again I think it fits the scenario far better for Tolkien to drop in the Elvish point of view as the overarching reality revealed by the Valar (if not in other ways), and that certain Men of early days also disbelieved this teaching. This version of Ainulindale, and DA, appear to have been written in 1946 or thereabouts, and possibly due in part to Katherine Farrer's opinion, Tolkien went back -- with respect to both the Ainulindale and the Numenor legend -- to a flat world becoming round. And thus we have Akallabeth; although interestingly, now the tradition of a changed world is not made so explicit as it was in the earlier Fall of Numenor.

Of course Tolkien will again question whether or not he should incorporate a once flat world, and as I say, in my opinion he ultimately resolves the issue: not by writing new text but by bringing back DA as it was, which can then co-exist internally with AK, giving a new perspective to what seemed to be 'true' according to AK -- which itself becomes a 'mixed' tradition, written by a Man yet one of the Faithful. Arguably the lack of a surviving written version of the Elvish tradition of Numenor is better, as the Elvish perspective will be less obvious that way.


To me this seems all in accordance with re-characterizing the Silmarillion as largely Mannish, to allow for certain 'questionable' notions within (which can be retained textually), where the learned Elves of Aman, or at least some of them, should know better. And to my mind the Elvish child's tale (mingled with counting lore) can do the same for the legend of the Sun.

[Aiwendil]

Yes, that is also more or less how I think the things probably stand. The doubt I expressed in my previous post was not so much intended to suggest that this thesis is incorrect as it was intended to point out that, even if it is most likely correct, there remains some room for alternative interpretations. I think you are probably quite correct about how DA, the Akallabeth, and the cosmological issue are related; I just wouldn't go so far as to say you are certainly correct.

Originally Posted by Galin

And what if the reader should think that the author of DA is incorrect on this point? Would this not raise the question of what the Elves 'actually' taught, beneath the confusion? It can hardly be that they really taught that the World was flat -- and in that case, the Men who disbelieved the (mis-reported) teaching would essentially be correct! I find that a bit too convoluted: that early Men (or certain Men) did not believe that the World was round, but the author of DA (a later Man) ultimately knows that the Elves were correct -- all within the idea that the World being round was actually incorrectly reported to begin with!?

The hypothetical scenario I had in mind was more along the following lines. Suppose that the Elvish tradition with respect to the shape of the Earth was that expressed in FN and Akallabeth - that is, an originally flat world made round at the time of the Cataclysm. But at some point, a Mannish tradition arises to the effect that the world is and always has been flat. This is the view held by the author of DA. Now suppose that the author of DA is aware that the Elves (and the Dunedain) have a different tradition from his own concerning the shape of the world - but that he misconstrues what that tradition is. Knowing that the Elves (or Dunedain) of his day claim that, contrary to his own belief, the world is round, he naturally assumes that they hold that the world was always round (just as he holds that it was always flat), and therefore in DA he ascribes to the Elves of Second Age the view that he believes they would have had.

This scenario was, in fact, the one I envisioned when I first read DA years ago - and indeed, I think it's probably the natural thing to think if one has not yet read Morgoth's Ring and is used to thinking of the Akallabeth as the 'true' story. I now think it's probably wrong (that is to say, I think it's not likely that Tolkien had such an idea in mind), but I still think it's at least a plausible story.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Yes, that is also more or less how I think the things probably stand. The doubt I expressed in my previous post was not so much intended to suggest that this thesis is incorrect as it was intended to point out that, even if it is most likely correct, there remains some room for alternative interpretations. I think you are probably quite correct about how DA, the Akallabeth, and the cosmological issue are related; I just wouldn't go so far as to say you are certainly correct.

And I hope my posts are not reading that I am certain, especially since you are the first to engage with my suggestion, which is why I put it on the web (to test it and consider other paths).

The hypothetical scenario I had in mind was more along the following lines. Suppose that the Elvish tradition with respect to the shape of the Earth was that expressed in FN and Akallabeth - that is, an originally flat world made round at the time of the Cataclysm. But at some point, a Mannish tradition arises to the effect that the world is and always has been flat. This is the view held by the author of DA. Now suppose that the author of DA is aware that the Elves (and the Dunedain) have a different tradition from his own concerning the shape of the world - but that he misconstrues what that tradition is. Knowing that the Elves (or Dunedain) of his day claim that, contrary to his own belief, the world is round, he naturally assumes that they hold that the world was always round (just as he holds that it was always flat), and therefore in DA he ascribes to the Elves of Second Age the view that he believes they would have had.

This scenario was, in fact, the one I envisioned when I first read DA years ago - and indeed, I think it's probably the natural thing to think if one has not yet read Morgoth's Ring and is used to thinking of the Akallabeth as the 'true' story. I now think it's probably wrong (that is to say, I think it's not likely that Tolkien had such an idea in mind), but I still think it's at least a plausible story.

Maybe I'm misreading you here, but I'm wondering about this part...

But at some point, a Mannish tradition arises to the effect that the world is and always has been flat. This is the view held by the author of DA.

... in other words, even without reading Morgoth's Ring, what part of the text of DA is arguably leading the reader to think that the author (of DA) thinks the World is flat?

Christopher Tolkien notes:

'In The Drowning of Anadune the Nimir (Eldar) had come to the Adunaim an expressly taught that the world was of its nature round ('as an apple it hangeth on the branches of heaven', section 23), but Zigur coming had gainsaid it ('The World was not a closed circle', section 31). In this work the author knows that the world is of its nature a globe; but very few of the Adunaim had believed this teaching until the voyages of the survivors of the Downfall taught them it was true.'

Doesn't the author of DA believe that the World is, and always was, round -- and so yet recounts the Mannish tradition (as a belief) that it was once flat but made round at the Downfall?

[Aiwendil]

Clearly it's been too long since I've read HoMe IX! With all the talk of DA being the 'Mannish' version of the story, I had actually quite forgotten that the author of DA himself accepts the round-world tradition.

But with that correction, I think my scenario remains plausible. That is, that the author of DA is mistaken in his understanding of what the 'Elvish belief' is (or was). He is aware that the Elves teach that the world is round, and indeed he believes them; but he is not aware that they teach that it used to be flat, before the Cataclysm.

The dispute in DA between the teachings of Zigur and of the Elves would then be material added to the legend by DA's author, wherein he puts into the mouths of each side the view he believes they would have had. One might even imagine that this addition to the legend was motivated by events in the author's own day - perhaps he ascribes the 'flat earth' view to Zigur as a way of discrediting the Men of his own day who hold that view.

Again, I don't pretend that this hypothesis is particularly likely. However, on reflection, it does at least avoid one somewhat puzzling feature of the alternative view. That is, if the Elvish belief is that the world was always round, then why does the author of DA (who, after all, even gets things like the difference between the Elves and the Ainur a bit muddled) present the authentic Elvish view, whereas Elendil himself believes the world was flat until the Cataclysm? If the dispute between the Elvish and Sauronic cosmologies actually occurred in Numenor, surely the Elf-friends would have known and accepted the Elvish view. In short, I still have trouble believing that the Dunedainic tradition could have gotten such a basic thing 'wrong' (assuming the Elves are correct) - and especially that, nonetheless, DA would get it 'right'.

[Galin]

Perhaps it might help (or not!) to add that while Elendil would arguably have been exposed to the Elvish point of view, I think he must have been born in a time after the Elves of Aman had ceased to sail to Numenor, and so would not have directly spoken to these Eldar from the West, at least. And given that DA relates: '... For in the youth of the world it was a hard saying to Men that the earth was not plain [flat] as it seemed to be, and few even of the Faithful of Anadune had believed in their hearts this teaching;...'

It may be that Elendil had met with 'mixed' notions as a child.

While an external observation, FN seems more explicit that the world was bent into a sphere. Can Elendil's AK be interpreted in a different light? That is, if one reads AK on its own -- without the addition of any other material which provides notions of a flat world made round -- is it necessarily flat-to-round? At least certainly? For instance, one might say the world was 'made round' and mean 'originally made round', or take the 'Gates' to be poetic. Although maybe I've forgotten something here.


Anyway, even if there's no getting around AK being a flat-to-round version, perhaps even Elendil agreed with those Faithful who found a round world hard to accept? And at the time, some might have considered that Sauron wouldn't necessarily be lying about everything, even if in general he was an enemy of the Faithful. The author of DA seems to be writing well enough after Elendil's day in any event.