A Matter of Redemption - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Manwe Sulimo · 12-28-2002, 06:21 PM

I just watched The Two Towers again today, and now, having more time to pay attention to details, I picked up a few things in dialogue and action that I missed the first time. Most of it was fairly minor, but there were a few things that really caught my attention. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You did not kill me, you will not kill him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>While Gandalf was "exorcising" Théoden, he yelled this at Saruman. The way he says it gives him a sort of "Luke Skywalker" complexion: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, I don't believe you'll kill me now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It seems to be used in the same context, meaning that Gandalf still believes that Saruman can be....will be redeemed. This also happens in the book, although only as a hope, not a serious consideration. Now, though, it seems like it could really happen (especially when you see Saruman's expression when he sees Isengard flooded around him).The other character that could be redeemed (as foreshadowed by actions in The Two Towers) was Gríma. It's very subtle, but after he is telling Saruman the weakness of Helm's Deep and Saruman shows him the assembled Uruk-hai, he (Gríma) sheds a tear. It seems as if his background as one of the Rohirrim hasn't entirely left him, and he could be ready and willing to abandon Saruman when Gandalf and Théoden come to Isengard.Maybe it's just my Star Wars background, searching for the Darth Vader of Middle-earth, but....The possibility exists.Thoughts?

My Cat Sasha · 12-28-2002, 07:17 PM

I've never really noticed that, though I've seen the same "hope of redemption" thing with Gollum. It's like a hope that any evil can be redeemed.

Arathiriel · 12-29-2002, 12:48 AM

Hmmmmm....Interesting point and yeah I think that Gandalf would hold out hope that Saruman isn't completely lost...Even as I say that I also believe Gandalf will also do what he has to if Saruman continues to side with Sauron - but I wonder how likely that is after seeing his face after the Ents got through with Isengard!Hmmmmm....

doug*platypus · 01-02-2003, 05:19 AM

Wow, Manwe, I think you were smoking Old Toady when you came up with that one! I mean, I'm a huge believer in parallels between SW and movieLOTR. How'd you like the Nazgul/Frodo scene?!?! "I'll never join you!" *flap* *flap*Gollum is Darth Vader. There is good in him. I can feel it. He even felt Frodo's presence... well, sleeve, but you know what he was getting at. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The other character that could be redeemed (as foreshadowed by actions in The Two Towers) was Gríma. It's very subtle, but after he is telling Saruman the weakness of Helm's Deep and Saruman shows him the assembled Uruk-hai, he (Gríma) sheds a tear. It seems as if his background as one of the Rohirrim hasn't entirely left him, and he could be ready and willing to abandon Saruman when Gandalf and Théoden come to Isengard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Interesting perception. My take on that was that Grima was struck by the evil beauty of all that destructive power, and was moved to a tear of pride or happiness or something. Glad to get another perspective. Time will tell. I don't expect something as complicated as the Redemption of Wormtongue from PJ, though.

12-28-2002, 06:21 PM	#1
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	A Matter of Redemption I just watched <I>The Two Towers</I> again today, and now, having more time to pay attention to details, I picked up a few things in dialogue and action that I missed the first time. Most of it was fairly minor, but there were a few things that really caught my attention.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You did not kill me, you will not kill him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While Gandalf was "exorcising" Théoden, he yelled this at Saruman. The way he says it gives him a sort of "Luke Skywalker" complexion:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, I don't believe you'll kill me now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems to be used in the same context, meaning that Gandalf still believes that Saruman can be....<I>will</I> be redeemed. This also happens in the book, although only as a hope, not a serious consideration. Now, though, it seems like it could really happen (especially when you see Saruman's expression when he sees Isengard flooded around him).<P>The other character that could be redeemed (as foreshadowed by actions in <I>The Two Towers</I>) was Gríma. It's very subtle, but after he is telling Saruman the weakness of Helm's Deep and Saruman shows him the assembled Uruk-hai, he (Gríma) sheds a tear. It seems as if his background as one of the Rohirrim hasn't entirely left him, and he could be ready and willing to abandon Saruman when Gandalf and Théoden come to Isengard.<P>Maybe it's just my <I>Star Wars</I> background, searching for the Darth Vader of Middle-earth, but....<P>The possibility exists.<P>Thoughts? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-28-2002, 07:17 PM	#2
My Cat Sasha Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Shire Posts: 46	I've never really noticed that, though I've seen the same "hope of redemption" thing with Gollum. It's like a hope that any evil can be redeemed. __________________ Frodo: Go back, Sam! I'm going to Mordor alone. Sam: Of course you are, and I'm comming with you!

12-29-2002, 12:48 AM	#3
Arathiriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Blessed Realm Posts: 284	Hmmmmm....<P>Interesting point and yeah I think that Gandalf would hold out hope that Saruman isn't completely lost...<P>Even as I say that I also believe Gandalf will also do what he has to if Saruman continues to side with Sauron - but I wonder how likely that is after seeing his face after the Ents got through with Isengard!<P>Hmmmmm.... __________________ 'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.' - Samwise Gamgee

01-02-2003, 05:19 AM	#4
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Wow, Manwe, I think you were smoking Old Toady when you came up with that one! I mean, I'm a huge believer in parallels between SW and movieLOTR. How'd you like the Nazgul/Frodo scene?!?! "I'll never join you!" flap flap<P>Gollum is Darth Vader. There is good in him. I can feel it. He even felt Frodo's presence... well, sleeve, but you know what he was getting at. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The other character that could be redeemed (as foreshadowed by actions in The Two Towers) was Gríma. It's very subtle, but after he is telling Saruman the weakness of Helm's Deep and Saruman shows him the assembled Uruk-hai, he (Gríma) sheds a tear. It seems as if his background as one of the Rohirrim hasn't entirely left him, and he could be ready and willing to abandon Saruman when Gandalf and Théoden come to Isengard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Interesting perception. My take on that was that Grima was struck by the evil beauty of all that destructive power, and was moved to a tear of pride or happiness or something. Glad to get another perspective. Time will tell. I don't expect something as complicated as the Redemption of Wormtongue from PJ, though. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.