Barrow's rules of order / Rev. Silmarillion Proj.

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 182</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
**Edit note6/9/01 ---
Maybe we can convene on this thread [or start a new one] and come up w/ a current plan that is agreed upon by the current members as opposed to the rules largely agreed on by Saul,Mith and myself.
I am placing it here as this thread contains much info re: what has gone before and would in part be a good base to build on I think.

What say ye?

end edit**



**Edit note ---I have retitled the thread &quot;DoV/Finwe and Miriel and the barrows rules of order&quot;
w/out changing any content. 1/23/01 {end edit}**

this is a revised version from the literary devices thread updated and moved from that thread for your
consideration and convienence.

the missing #'s are due to some item's not being relevant -fret not.

************************************************
3} I propose we pick a text to use as our &quot;base text &quot; [the criteria being which text has the most of what we think
we will keep] and # the chapters sequentially for easy reference .
4}
I don't yet know wether we want to use the base text idea see below
I am also anticipating that we will run into CRRT's editorializing quite
quickly and this I hope will provide us w/ a model of how to adapt the
style of older texts,esp. IV and V .
5}
we will also hit the question , I am guessing of wether or not to keep
and use links or more than cosmetic changes that CRRT made . I will
tentatively put forth [ &amp; I expect to hear some feedback on this! ] the
idea that we seriously consider using any links he gives us that do not
create new story, but are stylistic. What do you think on that? Wether
or not to use CRRT's bigger changes deserves a thread of it's own and
happily I don't think we need to cross that bridge yet ,but we will see
what the tale will bring!


I am eagerly looking forward to our first group discussion [after we have all read the relevant texts] .

What say ye ? [to the sectional theory]
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programing...
================
6-b***** We could use a system of bracketing that would tell
us which phrase or sentence or word came from what source , e.g.
&lt;Finwe said no&gt;* would indicate-77
{ Finwe said no} would indicate- IV
[Finwe said no] would indicate- V etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (Finwe said no) would idicate - I
Finwe said no would indicate base text- X
these would run throughout our edited copies of the chapters/sections and would tell us [or anyone ] at aglance just where a given line came from.
7- I think this is the main thing missing from your versions Saulotus, a quick * * * * *
and easy way of seeing what and from whence are your changes. I propose putting the corresponding paragraph #'s of the source of each word, phrase , sentence par graph , etc. in the margin this way we would be spared choopping the text up w/ clumsy words and
abbrev. or detailed notes at the end {and instead we can have clumsy
brackets throughout the text <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] . I am open to other suggestions here,
this just popped into my head and seemed simple and convienent
[compared to the alternatives I could imagine that is].
What say ye?
8
As to debating changes and having a system whereby we hash out our
disaggrements, I suggest that we:
A&gt;&gt;&gt; read the necesarry books in all versions making notes for group discussion
and queries esp making note of where we think the natural divisions fall and which
book should be used as a base text for each section.
B&gt;&gt;&gt; work together on a general outline while establishing our repective sections
and talking over the big bumps we know will be in the road and trying to ensure that
our independent sections will have cohesion and not really be independent at all.
C&gt;&gt;&gt;then submit our drafts of the sections to the group , automatically
soliciting feedback- which we then [ if there is any] hope is unanimously agreed on , if not the ...
D&gt;&gt;&gt; we make suggestons and debate a bit and if this does not resolve it
vote,majority rules -if we have a deadlock due to having an even # of editors we can either:
1&gt;&gt;&gt; give 2 votes to the editor of the particular paragraph [or any size section], or
2&gt;&gt;&gt; choose an 'independent' arbitrator,
*************************************I think it is very important to have
some system of this type in place so that our method of resolution is
communicative and clear and not prolonged or subject to individual whims.*******************
**********


In closing:

I will reiterate to hopefully avoid any ill-will or confusion , these are
suggestions, open to debate -I hope they are only seen as one
members attempt to offer what he can .



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 6/9/01 8:23:40 am

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 473</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV/Finwe&amp; Miriel / the barrows rules of order

OK. Again, which texts do we begin fiddling with. Also doesn't Finwe and Miriel belong with Of Feanor rather than the Darkening of Valinor?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 362</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV/Finwe&amp; Miriel / the barrows rules of order

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Of Finwe and Miriel' into DoV<hr></blockquote>
This is correct, sub-chapters were the intent; however a related note FWIW: pg. 299-300 concerning Of Men &quot;At the first rising of the sun above the earth the younger children of the world awoke&quot; 'This depends upon an &gt;&gt;OLD&lt;&lt; version in which the sun was first made after the death of the Trees.'

LOL. Sorry.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> w/ the possible addition of F&amp;M this promises to be one of the coolest chapters in a revised Silm.<hr></blockquote>
One must also examine Of Naming, and Laws and Customs and decide on if the material needs repetition or should stand as additional detail as the appendix item it was intended to be.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> We could use a system of bracketing that would tell
us which phrase or sentence or word came from what source<hr></blockquote>
I suppose this could work, but would certainly add time taken to detail such notations, but as long as there are no time constraints...

I submit that where possible; using the paragraph numbers as supplied in HOME and adding the variant letter for 77 deviations would be easiest.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I think this is the main thing missing from your versions<hr></blockquote>
Agreed, but then they really weren't made to be scrutinized closely for origin as they were a private endeavor and not truly intended as anything else, but it is possible to do so nevertheless. I really sent them as an example, and as a spark to light the fire <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Saulotus- I hope you will be willing to be the MT editor-in -cheif for the different chapters<hr></blockquote>
A somewhat dubious honor I believe. Something like the Umpire at a base-ball game I would think is an appropriate analogy, but without the authority. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Of course this means that things such as the populace of Gondolin would have to remain 'mostly Noldor' as MT intends rather than the 'mostly Sindar' as Of Tuor states as indicitive of the detail that must be maintained. Just wait until the Edain cross the Ered Luin; hoooodoggie! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 1/11/01 2:58:02 pm

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 184</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
DoV

Darkening of valinor is the agreed upon text . while doing a little looking nto X I found JRRT had plans for a DoV / F&amp;M it I was unaware of [I think I cited the page # in the first post. i hope to reread it tonight . It should be something we all check out to make sure we get his gist.

was the OK a blanket ok foor the proposed Barrows rules of order?
That is truly much to hope for!
lindil

"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end."</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 208</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
DoV

Ok, I will join your efforts, but I must say that I haven't read III,V-XII. I wish I could have read them, but I have no access to them. Library does not carry them, and I do not have the means to purchase them. But working from memory I could be of some help.

Plus I think everything you guys are doing sounds great, even if I do not sometimes agree with every text that you use.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 480</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV

If I understand things correctly Saul, you should be concentrating on MT passages to replace conflicting portions of DoV, as well as helping out otherwise.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 363</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV

No problem.

As a headstart; I have sent to you both a small series of text that are appropriate to MT: Sorry Durelen, but since you are coming aboard maybe Mith or Lind can send you what they feel is appropriate.

No worries on text, there is plenty more, but flooding probably isn't a good idea, so I'll desist with this until such time as necessary.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 1/11/01 8:55:11 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 483</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV

Methinks Saul has already written the canon <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 224</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV

Mithadan, exactly how are you going to get V to me?

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 364</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV

Written the canon? Hardly. Since my personal view on 'canon' is that less is better; it's somewhat running against the direction this is taking <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

But these were appropriate to what I beleive is the intent of the project; an editorial polishing of the text using material that was not available to Christopher at the time he did his own edit on SIL, and (in my view) to remove\restore the damage he well-intentiondly did in trying to preserve a narrative flow akin to the previous books by his father, by removing text that was related to sections that were unfinished, or would damage prior text and remove what he would be able to construct for the narrative flow using what he had available.

Tell me I don't know to cover my butt. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 187</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Gone for a bit and look.....

&quot;Impressive , very impressive.&quot;

I will be up 1/2 the night trying in vai to catch up w/ all this . wonderful!

A quick note , further perusal of the F&amp;M question re: DoV reveals that JRRT had in mind some strange conglomerate title for 5 or so chapters of the Silm. that he called DoV as they were effected by the new material he was creating . But for our purposes we may want tostickw/ the77 chapter and it's new additions [and it's possible MT deletions <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ]

It seems bits of F&amp; M will need to be included but the core of it will as you mentioned Mithadan belong earlier .
In all honesty HoV may turn out to be almost as big an undertaking as FoG. I will endeavor to cathch up on all that has been posted this Aft/eve and then get a more solid grip on DoV in terms of sections to work on.

Saulotus , your idea re: using the home # system is good .
Are all the versions in agreement from IV on? I havn't read much ofit w/ that eye.


Durelen, I have no way to get any missing books to you as I have no scanner , but if the reference of saulotus was to the peices of his private canon I can email those.

lindil

"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end." Lindil is often found on posting on the New Revised Silmarillion at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 485</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gone for a bit and look.....

Durelen, snail mail I suppose (I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly that you're in the US), I generally don't do hand deliveries. Your call. If you're not comfortable, I understand. Anonymity is comfortable in places such as this. If you click on my nickname, you can message me via the site's private mail. Just remember to put your nick on the post. I've been getting a lot of messages recently.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 227</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gone for a bit and look.....

That would be great, lindil. I would like to take a look at what I am truly getting myself into

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 366</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gone for a bit and look.....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I would like to take a look at what I am truly getting myself into<hr></blockquote>
An editorial nightmare.

Relax and enjoy.

How's that go?
&quot;One, two, Freddy's coming for you. Three, four, better lock your door...&quot; <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">lindil
Posts: 344</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
edit's

I went back and fiddled w/ the brackets so that they will work for DoV . we will have to modify the system for each chapter as they stand now , which is no big deal, however, if we get past the 3rd draft and are invoved on an even larger level then I suggest we create a more permanent and elaborate system.
N.B. the core of the &quot;rule's&quot; are in the 1st post.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/26/01 2:30:27 am

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 358</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
those darn brackets

OK Gwaihir , you were right. They are not going to work properly. Does anyone have ideas or preferences for how to document the shifts of text/sources in our drafts? I sent around a preliminary DoVsect.4 did everyone get it ? { iknow durelen did} . The 'system' I used there is I suppose doable ,though in need of consistent application and uniformity.
Am I alone in concern over this?

Awaiting word from my fellow editors,
Lindil

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 391</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: those darn brackets

I am not to worried about how uniform the actual work turns out, we are only making a cannonical Silm. so as long as we don't deveate from his texts and use the facts, then it should be fine.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 751</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: those darn brackets

If you look at the thread where I posted my first draft a few days ago, I've just posted a bracketed version (which has yet to be read by anyone). I don't think that one's bad. A note at the top of the post will be enough. Not too commplicated either.

I've used [] around text taken from orbased on info from Sil, {} around text based or taken from text in HoME, and where I've used a new improvisation (once. I wrote that Melkor used his knife to stab Telperion, not the Noldo's sword), ** around either {} or [] (depending on where I got the idea). Seems to work okay, and as it is not too elaborate, it should be easy (realatively speaking) to read.

Tiron or Tuna. I think that all names in Sil should be left enitrely as they are, regardless of whether later forms are found in Morgoth's Ring or any other HoME book. 'Tirion' upon 'Tuna' seems fine; better that just 'Tuna' anyway. Tirion is the form everyone knows.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 560</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: those darn brackets

Sorry all. Too busy in real life to spend time on the Canon this week. I'll print everything and try to review it this weekend.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 360</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Aha

Good to hear from you Mithadan, hope to see your posts this weekend. I also will be posting little till lateSat pm [most likely].

lindil

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 361</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
.

Windlord:&quot;I've just posted a bracketed version (which has yet to be
read by anyone). I don't think that one's bad. A note at the top of
the post will be enough. Not too commplicated either.

Ilindil: Sorry if I wasn't explicit enough in referring to your new version ,but my comments re: saulotus and 77 in the email of my preliminary draft I sent out a couple of days back , were addressing your revision.
I am not sure if you got it.

The problem I now see w/ brachets is that they won't cover using alternate versions from the same volume. I should have seen this problem before but I didn't.
So in your section G. and in my prelim. draft there is no problem , but as soon as I add a line or word from Annals of Aman [also in X] ineed a whole new et of brackets [this goes for IV and V as well].

Also , so far what the initial 4[ now 3] of us decided was that there would be no creative writing,filling in the gaps or other emendation to the texts, we would use JRRT's words only. a handicap I know but one that keeps the potential for confusion {are we rewriting [no] or editing [yes] the SIlmarillion} at bay.

Durelen: I don't see the need [ or wish fo the near nightmare] of HoME style notation,[ie ultra- elaborate] but I do think we need a simple way of documenting where each part of our sections comes from so that we [and any others ] can get an idea w/ out laborious detective work.

It sounds as if Mithadan will be returning idea's this w/end so hopefully we can reestablish consensus on this matter.

Lindil

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 452</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: .

Sorry for not responding/replying to anything or for not keeping everyone updated on my progress. The truth is it is very hard to do this with the time I am given. I have an awful schedule, that leaves me with at most an hour of free time to do this at the moment. I wish my schedule was more compressed, because I actually have enough time to do it, I think, but it is all divided up in half-hours and 15 minute intervals. I will try to respond more to your posts lindil, sorry if it looks as though I am avoiding the Silm. Cannon forum, your posts are just to lengthy for me to look at and then respond to with something that is also lengthy, or short even.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 453</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: .

Oh, and IMO there should be notation, not like HoME style notation, but much more condensed and without all the inimportant material. However, I can see it would be easier to just do what you said, lindil. I guess I will give your idea a yea.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 379</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
confused pt. 2

which idea?

I understand about scheduling, I am in much the same boat.
But no one should feel time pressure I think, there is no hurry,I don't think any of us can devote more than an hour here or there to it.

lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 389</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
please see

please see the new note at the begining of this thread.
sorry I should have just put it here- but I didn't!




</p>